Annealing: does it “expire”?

[fatelvis]

After 35 years of reloading, I am just now starting to anneal cases. I am not using tight neck Chambers, I am just looking for consistent bullet pull and brass spring back. My question is: can I anneal A batch of brass, and let it sit a couple weeks before processing them? Or does the annealing somehow change during time? Thanks guys. This is a great website, lots of knowledge and information here!

 

[lpreddick]

Weeks, I believe you are ok...year or more, many of us believe this brass will "age" thus harder. I once questioned some that annealed every or every other firing...not anymore. I have an Annealeze machine, so I anneal every other firing and seating resistance is consistent.

 

[fatelvis]

I have an Anealeez also. A new toy! With how easy and quick it is to anneal consistently now, annealing every time is more appealing.

 

[riflewoman]

After 35 years of reloading, I am just now starting to anneal cases. I am not using tight neck Chambers, I am just looking for consistent bullet pull and brass spring back. My question is: can I anneal A batch of brass, and let it sit a couple weeks before processing them? Or does the annealing somehow change during time? Thanks guys. This is a great website, lots of knowledge and information here!

You can anneal brass today and twenty years from now they will be as you left them provided they are not exposed to a corrosive atmosphere. So put them in a plastic bag or sealed ammo can.

Weeks, I believe you are ok...year or more, many of us believe this brass will "age" thus harder. I once questioned some that annealed every or every other firing...not anymore. I have an Annealeze machine, so I anneal every other firing and seating resistance is consistent.

There is no metallurgist working in the copper and brass industry anywhere on this planet that would agree with your belief.

 

[ireload2]

Brass that has seated bullets behaves differently than does brass that is not loaded.

I have never seen empty brass crack on its own but it may crack when it is fired the first time.
It is common for loaded ammo to age over decades and have the necks crack in storage or crack when fired.

 

[watercam]

That said I obtained several boxes of 1952 300 Weatherby Mag. ammunition with the old RWS 180 gr. bullets. They shot just fine (good Norma brass) and I reloaded them at least five times without incident. They had been stored in the cardboard boxes and left in a garage in a California coastal town for all this time. It's all relevant I suppose.

 

[Rsadams]

That said I obtained several boxes of 1952 300 Weatherby Mag. ammunition with the old RWS 180 gr. bullets. They shot just fine (good Norma brass) and I reloaded them at least five times without incident. They had been stored in the cardboard boxes and left in a garage in a California coastal town for all this time. It's all relevant I suppose.

I also have shot extremely old ( 70-80 years old ) factory ammo with no problems...

 

[dcali]

No. The grain size of brass does not change on human time scales.

People get confused because there is a slight stress relaxation effect that happens over time, but that is not the same as age hardening, and is not the same as annealing. People also confuse corrosion with age hardening. Again, separate things.

 

[Webster]

Weeks, I believe you are ok...year or more, many of us believe this brass will "age" thus harder. I once questioned some that annealed every or every other firing...not anymore. I have an Annealeze machine, so I anneal every other firing and seating resistance is consistent.

"Many of use believe"

Doesn't matter what you believe. It only matters what is true. Many still think the earth is flat and we never landed on the moon and there are aliens stored at Area 51.

 

[spencerhenry]

If age hardening does not happen, what is happening in this situation?
I have 7mm BR brass that I bought in 1990, it had been loaded 5 or 6 times with no annealing. I last loaded the brass in about 2006, I fired a few rounds each year with no issues with any of the brass. Then in 2017 I was checking zero to get ready for a deer hunt, and 75% of the brass was cracking in the neck.

 

[LHSmith]

We go through this argument monthly. Draw your own conclusions. FYI Kevin Thomas is a Lapua rep.
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/does-age-effect-brass.3816900/#post-36236014

http://www.norma.cc/en/Products/Components/Cases/

 

[Webster]

If age hardening does not happen, what is happening in this situation?
I have 7mm BR brass that I bought in 1990, it had been loaded 5 or 6 times with no annealing. I last loaded the brass in about 2006, I fired a few rounds each year with no issues with any of the brass. Then in 2017 I was checking zero to get ready for a deer hunt, and 75% of the brass was cracking in the neck.

I still have a 45-70 black powder cartridge that was reloaded before 1900. The brass is still soft. Your brass must have been worked a lot when sizing. My Redding FL die sizes the necks about 0.007" under what I want for 0.002" tension. So it's sized about 7 thou too small and the bullet opens it up about 7 thou. 14 thou cold work.

 

[Webster]

We go through this argument monthly. Draw your own conclusions. FYI Kevin Thomas is a Lapua rep.
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/does-age-effect-brass.3816900/#post-36236014

http://www.norma.cc/en/Products/Components/Cases/

Don't know what Kevin Thomas' background is but I have been doing metallurgical failure analysis for 45 years. I only like to read articles by metallurgist that work in the area I am interested in. I don't believe anything from a website like BuffaloBills reloading. Your correct we keep discussing the same thing because everyone has an opinion and we don't know who to believe. Some of the info on the annealing machine websites has a few errors. The Lapua website has one error.


The RifleWomen seems to be the best person on this website for good metallurgical info. She still has many doubters.

You can not learn metallurgy in you basement pulling the handle on a reloading press.

From my experience and after reading I agree that stress relieving doesn't change hardness. The amount of annealing that takes place depends on being above a critical temp for a certain amount of time. The critical temp is lowered by the amount of cold work.

If you don't believe the below info you shouldn't be commenting on metallurgy.
This is real information.
Posted 1 Jan 2018
You posed a question on our web site in regard to C260 cartridge brass age hardening with time.
The properties of copper based alloys (without plating) do not change based on "shelf life".
The surface condition may be impacted by storage conditions; material will tarnish over time.
If the stains become significant enough that could have a negative impact on formability.
Regards,
Joan Brennan
Technical Service & Market Development Engineering Manager
GBC Metals dba Olin Brass
East Alton, IL
Office 618 -258-5689 / Cell 618-301-7810
Joan.Brennan@olinbrass.com
Webster, Jan 1, 2018 Report#1Reply

https://www.copper.org/applications/industrial/DesignGuide/performance/stress03.html

 

[Monte F]

"Many of use believe"

Doesn't matter what you believe. It only matters what is true. Many still think the earth is flat and we never landed on the moon and there are aliens stored at Area 51.

I am sure the Earth is round, we probably landed on the moon. Now the third may be true, I know they get real excited if you try to go past the signs that say deadly force authorized beyond this point, top secret installation!

 

[Catfur]

If age hardening does not happen, what is happening in this situation?

This is happening.

 

[BP1]

I have no clue...but i always anneal brand new brass before using it.

 

[Bob L.]

Per Webster:
"From my experience and after reading I agree that stress relieving doesn't change hardness. The amount of annealing that takes place depends on being above a critical temp for a certain amount of time. The critical temp is lowered by the amount of cold work."

I have been trying to find information on this, but have had no success. I feel that the American Society for Metals Handbook would have it, but when I retired, I gave my set away (dumb move, as I look back).
Do you have a reference?

 

[mr45man]

If age hardening does not happen, what is happening in this situation?

dissimilar metals =electrolysis

 

[LHSmith]

Don't know what Kevin Thomas' background is but I have been doing metallurgical failure analysis for 45 years. I only like to read articles by metallurgist that work in the area I am interested in. I don't believe anything from a website like BuffaloBills reloading. Your correct we keep discussing the same thing because everyone has an opinion and we don't know who to believe. Some of the info on the annealing machine websites has a few errors. The Lapua website has one error.


The RifleWomen seems to be the best person on this website for good metallurgical info. She still has many doubters.

You can not learn metallurgy in you basement pulling the handle on a reloading press.

From my experience and after reading I agree that stress relieving doesn't change hardness. The amount of annealing that takes place depends on being above a critical temp for a certain amount of time. The critical temp is lowered by the amount of cold work.

If you don't believe the below info you shouldn't be commenting on metallurgy.
This is real information.
Posted 1 Jan 2018
You posed a question on our web site in regard to C260 cartridge brass age hardening with time.
The properties of copper based alloys (without plating) do not change based on "shelf life".
The surface condition may be impacted by storage conditions; material will tarnish over time.
If the stains become significant enough that could have a negative impact on formability.
Regards,
Joan Brennan
Technical Service & Market Development Engineering Manager
GBC Metals dba Olin Brass
East Alton, IL
Office 618 -258-5689 / Cell 618-301-7810
Joan.Brennan@olinbrass.com
Webster, Jan 1, 2018 Report#1Reply

https://www.copper.org/applications/industrial/DesignGuide/performance/stress03.html

So what she is saying is that unless cartridge brass is stored in a hermetically sealed temperature controlled environment all guarantees are off. Cases have only recently been supplied in sealed plastic bags. Ammo not so. BTW In addition to Norma- Remington and Federal warrant loaded ammo for a period of 10 years (IF properly stored).

 

[riflewoman]

What I’m saying is that corrosive elements in the atmosphere cause brass to deteriorate. One of the big corrosive elements is ammonia gas. Ammonia used to be present in many household cleaners. One of the ways of eliminating corrosive gases from contacting brass is to put a barrier over it. There is a reason the Army stored its ammo in sealed cans like those used to can SPAM the lunch meat. It was an easy way to keep the corrosives in the atmosphere from reaching the brass. Handiest way is to use a plastic bag.