AMP Press
- Thread starter Bryan Z.
- Start date
nice video. Where I noticed a big difference in non annealed brass was when I took brass with different numbers of firings with no anneal and shot them as a group. Try taking some of brass fire one once, then one twice, then one three times etc etc with no annealing then shoot them as a group. I think you will be able to see a markable difference both on the AMP press and on paper
The theory is the brass with more firings is much harder than brass with fewer firings so seating pressures will be different
The theory is the brass with more firings is much harder than brass with fewer firings so seating pressures will be different
So far I don't think we have seen any real data that would suggest that annealing produces better results than non annealed brass. If the non annealed brass neck tension would have been adjusted to be equal to the annealed group then maybe we could have a fair comparison. Also does jamming the bullet into the lands with non annealed brass produce results equal to jumped bullets with annealed brass. I just don't think the case for annealing has been made yet.
Very interesting, indeed.
I'd like to see the very same test done again and then compare the two tests. The way I look at things, running only one test (any one test) is like shooting one round at a target and drawing any conclusions based on that one round shot.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯One Eye Pete
Gold $$ Contributor
Thanks Bryan for sharing your test data. All data is greatly appreciated. As far as the groups you shot in the comparison they were all pretty darn good!!!! My only comment is that I don't know that you can attribute all of the difference in the groups to the annealing alone. Even shooting in a tunnel the shooter still has a significant influence. I have done a lot of shooting and lord knows I have never shot two groups the same under any conditions.
Assuming that you have a good chamfer on your case necks there are two components that make up the force required to seat a bullet.
1. Friction
2. Force due to expanding the neck (neck tension)
When necks are super clean on the inside the friction force will very noticeably increase the force to seat the bullet. When you fire the bullet the burnt powder leaves a nice carbon deposit on the inside of the neck which acts as a lubricant and makes it easier to seat the bullet the second time around.
What I notice when I anneal is two things.
1. The brass is softened so the force required to expand the necks is less.
2. The nice carbon deposit inside the neck is affected. It certainly doesn't look the same after annealing.
Is the force change to seat the bullets due entirely to the softer brass or does the effect the annealing has on the carbon in the neck come into play also and effect the friction?
Another big question I have is how does bullet seating force actually equate to bullet release?
When the primer ignites the powder does the bullet slide out of the neck or does the neck expand and then the bullet starts to move? I wish I new the answer. I do know that neck tension does affect group size but I don't know exactly how. My guess is that it affects that all important pressure curve and therefore barrel harmonics.
Although I strive for uniformity in reloading I have given up trying to split hairs. I do anneal to promote brass life and I do use a force gauge on my arbor press but only to cull out the "outliers" which are more often than not caused by an improper neck chamfer or an imperfection in the neck itself.
There are just too many variables in this game, neck tension, seating depth, primer crush ect. that you can go crazy about. The best anyone can do is to set up their reloading process as consistently as possible and hope that errors don't stack up.
The one thing that I know would improve my shooting more than anything is to be able to stay calm and consistent on the last shot of each string at a match. Talk about operator error!!!!!! I wish they sold something to overcome that. Then again they do but it requires a prescription and I'm not taking it when I go shooting!!!!!
Assuming that you have a good chamfer on your case necks there are two components that make up the force required to seat a bullet.
1. Friction
2. Force due to expanding the neck (neck tension)
When necks are super clean on the inside the friction force will very noticeably increase the force to seat the bullet. When you fire the bullet the burnt powder leaves a nice carbon deposit on the inside of the neck which acts as a lubricant and makes it easier to seat the bullet the second time around.
What I notice when I anneal is two things.
1. The brass is softened so the force required to expand the necks is less.
2. The nice carbon deposit inside the neck is affected. It certainly doesn't look the same after annealing.
Is the force change to seat the bullets due entirely to the softer brass or does the effect the annealing has on the carbon in the neck come into play also and effect the friction?
Another big question I have is how does bullet seating force actually equate to bullet release?
When the primer ignites the powder does the bullet slide out of the neck or does the neck expand and then the bullet starts to move? I wish I new the answer. I do know that neck tension does affect group size but I don't know exactly how. My guess is that it affects that all important pressure curve and therefore barrel harmonics.
Although I strive for uniformity in reloading I have given up trying to split hairs. I do anneal to promote brass life and I do use a force gauge on my arbor press but only to cull out the "outliers" which are more often than not caused by an improper neck chamfer or an imperfection in the neck itself.
There are just too many variables in this game, neck tension, seating depth, primer crush ect. that you can go crazy about. The best anyone can do is to set up their reloading process as consistently as possible and hope that errors don't stack up.
The one thing that I know would improve my shooting more than anything is to be able to stay calm and consistent on the last shot of each string at a match. Talk about operator error!!!!!! I wish they sold something to overcome that. Then again they do but it requires a prescription and I'm not taking it when I go shooting!!!!!
I have tested this and annealing does benefit precision quite a bit. I think I have 2 or 3 videos exhibiting data that supports this conclusion.
Take some already fired cases and anneal them and size them as you normally would. Take another group of already fired cases and don't anneal them and size them as you normally would and then use an expander mandrel to adjust the neck tension so that the amount of force needed to seat the bullet is the same between the two cases. I would be willing to bet you will see no difference at the target or on the Chrono. Plus I just saved $ 1500. Ask David Tubb why he doesn't anneal anything.
RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
Not to stir the pot too much.... I don't mean to detract from Brian's thread. You have a point but the agony is the balance between annealing properly, versus learning to live without it. Context matters...
TL;DR - The context of the game determines the state of the art, and David Tubb's words can get taken out of context. He is certainly one of the most accomplished people in shooting and a gem of a guy, but he isn't always applying his words across the board and neither should we.
Sometimes folks take what David is doing out of context and try to short cut their own effort and apply his words across the board. For the record, I have the greatest admiration for David. The Tubbs have all been nothing but generous to me with their time and I consider them friends.
David isn't shooting Short Range Bench Rest, these days he has been pushing long range and ELR cartridge designs where the brass and chambers do not run the same as the ones Brian Z is running. David did a lot of things back in his highpower and silhouette days differently than he does now, and some things the same. He can still shoot the difference to demonstrate what he is doing, and Brian Z will too.
For example, what Brian Z is doing is short range bench rest. His chambering and cases are typically going to last a whole lot more cycles than David's. Brian will typically retire the cases when the primer pockets are feeling loose or when he sees the groups open up. This will easily exceed the number of cycles it would take, sans annealing, to completely work harden the necks to failure or to the point where his sizing/seating would change drastically in order to stay in tune.
David's highpower and ELR cases may or may not go that many cycles. Another big difference in context is the nature of the round counts and pre-loading versus range loading. A BR match contains 5 shot groups and aggregates at state of the art are required to win. Short range BR is very detailed and picky game.
On the other hand, Highpower strings in Long Range can be 15 to 20 shots from slings, benches, or F-Class styles, where the wind calls are often more important and accuracy is required to win, however, the vast majority of highpower shooters would not be competitive with those loads in a SR BR match.
LR BR has the need for state of the art group sizes to win, but not for a 20 shot string. Some LR BR folks anneal, some do not.
ELR matches are a preloaded affair where the batch sizes are large and travel requirements apply constraints. While their groups might be small, they are not going to try and compete in BR with the same practices since they have to put equal priority on ES than just short range group size.
If Brian Z were to attempt what you are proposing, he would see a few cycles of stability with the trend in work hardening, then end up spending much of his time chasing the tuning to account for the neck tension changes that you pointed out. Yes, he could just choose to skip annealing and introduce fresh brass more often or even just occasionally anneal, but even that is tedious, expensive, and risky with today's supply issues.
That said, your point is certainly valid and I agree with your point in the context where you will burn up the head of the case before the necks get out of control, but when the case life is on the order of a whole season that system won't be as efficient on average if you anneal properly. You are also correct in a sense, that is that many folks make things worse with inconsistent annealing. They would often be better off controlling neck tension and not annealing, or learning to anneal consistently. Many folks who anneal cannot shoot the difference.
But the real agony would come from those in between situations where the case life is just long enough to cause neck tensions to drift before case life ends. When we expose necks to 55 kpsi, they begin a trip to the same hardness as the body. Before too long, you have a neck hard enough to require changes to the sizing recipe and more tuning work, in comparison to learning to anneal properly. Some contexts jam, and some jump. There are not equal risks in the theory of annealing or not annealing, based on the context.
YMMV
ISS
Gold $$ Contributor
This press is reviewed in the new issue of Handloader that hit my mailbox yesterday. It looks really neat, but I nearly had a stroke when I read the MSRP. $1395 is a nice stack of Benjamins.
What do those of you who have one think? Worth the price?
I just bought a BAT DS for about a hundred and a half less, delivered.
ISS
What do those of you who have one think? Worth the price?
I just bought a BAT DS for about a hundred and a half less, delivered.
ISS
I have done exactly as you prescribed. Seating pressure on the annealed
case needed .0005 tighter neck on a wild cat I was working on. I will also
note that this was a no turn neck. Maybe a thin turned neck would skew
the results, but I shoot no turn thicker neck brass......My results showed a
slight but better SD with the annealed brass. My thoughts on that is, now
it's not in the realm of seating pressure, but now we are talking "release".
Even though the seating pressure is the same, the non annealed case will
want to hold that bullet a bit longer. Then you can also talk whether your
using an inside neck lube like I do on brass with just a couple of firings.
Or no neck lube after around 4 firings, like I do......Bottom line is to hone
all the variables.
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