Ammo "runout"??

[NorCalMikie]

Seems to me like a lot of folks are heavy into making sure their ammo has the "least amount of runout".
Be it full length, collet or bushing type dies being used, there always a seems to be an issue (with some folks) about runout and the best way to eliminate it.
Anybody compare ammo that had significant runout to ammo that was comparativly straight as far as on target accuracy? Maybe I'am missing something?

 

[Martin52]

Certainly beyond 600 yds run out becomes more critical. My neck sized cases typically show 3-5 thou run out whereas the FLS rounds are generally under 2 thou. reducing run out is just one of several "variables" that need to be addressed to reduce inconsistencies from round to round in order to produce tighter groups especially at longer distances (more than 600 yds). As a rule, all my rounds used for 600yd + will have under 2 thou run out. My "testing" or "comparing" has been at the range and I do find a definite correlation between run out and groups, that is, greater run out = wider grouping.
Martin

 

[flashhole]

Runout is one important variable, another is consistent neck tension, another is consistent charge weight, another is consistent seating depth, another is headspace, another is case uniformity ... and this list doesn't even mention component selection.

Handloading for best accuracy is more about recipe and process refinement and control than anything else. It all has to come together.

 

[necchi]

"Anybody compare ammo that had significant runout to ammo that was comparativly straight as far as on target accuracy?"

Ho ya, I can see a differance at 200 with my 223.

 

[BoydAllen]

If you shot five five shot groups in a row, like a match, and averaged them, what would the number be? Depending on the rifle, and how it is shot, some things can get lost in the noise. With a good rifle, and a well tuned load, I can see the difference. Most shooters have larger issues that tend to obscure this one. On the other hand, I have see sub half inch accuracy from factory ammunition that was only "relatively" straight. When you are trying for 1s, everything matters. The bigger the group size expectation or goal, the fewer the things that matter.

 

[bozo699]

All, That A.L.L inconsistencies matter no matter how small. No or not many single inconsistencies matter much, but all added up they sure do! As Boyd said if your shooting for .1s yes every little thing counts, if your shooting for 1.s, no not as important.
Wayne.

 

[SS427]

One of the smallest groups I ever shot with a factory rifle was with ammo sorted by runout. Problem was, it happend to be those rounds that had the most runout, which was around .005. Go figure.

For a while I concluded that rounds with .005 or less runout would shoot about the same. My first benchrest rifle changed that opinion. With my current lot of 100 Lapua 6BR brass I get about 10 rounds that don't load with .002 or less runout. Those ten rounds I always shoot into 2 groups. On average they are always bigger groups than the other 90 rounds. Not a lot bigger, but enough that I do take the time to sort them out. I don't shoot in the 1s, yet, but controlling runout has helped me get into the 2s.

 

[NorCalMikie]

I don't sort brass or bullets or check runout.
I weigh all my charges on a beam scale. I load on the low side. Seat all my bullets at .010 jam.
I neck size and shoulder bump as needed. I don't check my loads on a Chrony "very often".
Maybe I'am missing something by not checking runout? Maybe I can improve on my targets?

 

[bozo699]

NorCalMikie,
Nice groups sir, I know many short range Br shooters that don't do much prep work with great results like yours. does your 1000 yard groups stay under 1/4 moa like the ones posted?
Wayne.

 

[NorCalMikie]

Wayne:I can't even see out to 1000 yards! ;D
Our range is limited to 100 yard target stands. One steel target at 440 yards but you'de have to be a Billy Goat to get up there. No scope adjustment change, just hold over a click or two. I can hit it with no problem but have no idea what type of group I would be shooting. Pretty small center swinger that I've blown out a few times so they may be pretty good.
Those targets posted are a 5 shot group at 100 yards, off the bench. Seems to happen pretty regular without too much work. 500 or 600 yards would be fun to try someday.

 

[bozo699]

Seems to me like a lot of folks are heavy into making sure their ammo has the "least amount of runout".

Wayne:I can't even see out to 1000 yards! ;D
Our range is limited to 100 yard target stands.
Those targets posted are a 5 shot group at 100 yards, off the bench. Seems to happen pretty regular without too much work. 500 or 600 yards would be fun to try someday.

Maybe I'am missing something?

NorCalMikie,
I really don't think your missing anything, with the type of shooting your doing, no offense intended at all, your only shooting 100 yards. Now to shoot as good as your doing @ any distance you have to have good bench skills and unless your shooting on calm days you need to be able read the wind(something I need to learn) and good equipment,and components.
(Obviously you have all these things going for you )
After 300 yards I think you have to start weighing ea. charge instead of just throwing them start doing complete brass prep work and start worrying about run out, Es and Sd and every other little variable, after 600 yards for darn sure all little things come into play. These are just my opinions but I share them with many long range shooters. for ea 100 pieces of brass I have about 8 hours of work into them before I ever pull the trigger and then a little more afterwords If I could shoot as well @ 1k as you are @ 100 I certainly wouldn't waste all that time @ the reloading bench, I would spend it shooting like you Good luck @ the range and stop worrying about those pesky wobbly bullets my friend
Wayne.

 

[NorCalMikie]

Wayne: We're all in this game to improve and learn something new. Every little bit helps and with all these guys that are trying different things and talking about them, there's no way we can't learn something. I guess I've been pretty lucky so far but I'am always open to something new, for me at least. A little "long distance" shooting may give me something to think about.
You guys keep the ideas and opinions coming. We're never too old to learn something new.

 

[bozo699]

I concur on the never to old to learn. I have learned more on this site in the last couple of years than I ever have before. I used to take subscriptions to every gun magazine imaginable, but when you have a question the magazine can't answer back ??? I have only been a actual site member for less than a year and I post quite a bit but not nearly as much as I read and learn. I have been a avid shooter all my life and really really into it the last 15 years, and I have learned more in the last couple of years while cruzing this site than all the rest combined.
Wayne.

 

[40X Guy]

I concur on the never to old to learn. I have learned more on this site in the last couple of years than I ever have before. I used to take subscriptions to every gun magazine imaginable, but when you have a question the magazine can't answer back ??? I have only been a actual site member for less than a year and I post quite a bit but not nearly as much as I read and learn. I have been a avid shooter all my life and really really into it the last 15 years, and I have learned more in the last couple of years while cruzing this site than all the rest combined.
Wayne.

Amen to that!! What a site!