Am I over cleaning ?
- Thread starter dantiff2
- Start date
I would say that you are over cleaning. Normally I will clean every 20 to 30 shots. If you have a crown with a sharp edge than you may want to scrub less. I put 60 degree chamfers on my crowns to guide the brush back into the bore and with the chamfer there is no sharp edge to mess up.
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I shoot 105 scenars in a 6BR. Typically clean every 40-50 rounds with 3 wet patches followed by Wipe-out. That gun is a consistent 1/4 moa or better rifle.
Have a close friend with a 6 PPC with Shilen barrel. We have 2 months of records with multiple groups. After cleaning and 3 foulers it shoots well up to 50 rounds. We've never pushed it farther than 50 rounds. But, I'm saying it has shot multiple 5-shot groups in the low, low ones with 40-50 rounds through the barrel since cleaning. Oh and that barrel has never seen a bronze brush or abrasives.
EVERY BARREL is different. Some barrels need a lot of cleaning. But you should experiment with going longer round counts between cleanings and see what happens, IMHO.
Re brushes and crowns: I personally advocate taking the 5 seconds and removing brushes rather than dragging them back across the crown. You can clean the brush before re-inserting it. Why drag the fouling back INTO the bore that you are trying to hard to get rid of?
Also I think most good hand-lapped barrels don't need much brushing, so it won't add a lot of time to remove a brush.
I acknowledge that many, many good shooters draw the brush both ways. I just see no need to do so, and Frank Green of Bartlein and John Krieger feel likewise.
Have a close friend with a 6 PPC with Shilen barrel. We have 2 months of records with multiple groups. After cleaning and 3 foulers it shoots well up to 50 rounds. We've never pushed it farther than 50 rounds. But, I'm saying it has shot multiple 5-shot groups in the low, low ones with 40-50 rounds through the barrel since cleaning. Oh and that barrel has never seen a bronze brush or abrasives.
EVERY BARREL is different. Some barrels need a lot of cleaning. But you should experiment with going longer round counts between cleanings and see what happens, IMHO.
Re brushes and crowns: I personally advocate taking the 5 seconds and removing brushes rather than dragging them back across the crown. You can clean the brush before re-inserting it. Why drag the fouling back INTO the bore that you are trying to hard to get rid of?
Also I think most good hand-lapped barrels don't need much brushing, so it won't add a lot of time to remove a brush.
I acknowledge that many, many good shooters draw the brush both ways. I just see no need to do so, and Frank Green of Bartlein and John Krieger feel likewise.
When shooting in BR group matches I clean my 6's or 22 centerfires after every target. For score matches when shooting my 30 I clean after every 3 or 4 targets. I might use a brush for a few strokes at the end of the day but during the match I just use a nylon jag and patches. I use MC7 solvent.
Being a former member of the "short range" bench rest group shooters I would say you are not over cleaning, but would question your over use of Sweets. Some say that Sweets is capable of damaging barrels. Ammonia or something ? Shooters choice, et.all would be a better choice I.M.H.O.
Vita est brevis
jerrold
Vita est brevis
jerrold
Sweets is the right stuff to use and I always start the match with a clean tube,bore scope verified) and clean after every relay usually about 15 to 20 rounds with Sweets and Butches. A clean barrel is a happy barrel---just do it Right and you will have no issues...
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Again repeating the caveat that ALL BARRELS are DIFFERENT, I'd say I've seen incontrovertible evidence that some barrels take as many as 15 rounds to foul in after being cleaned aggressively.
Other barrels will get into their accuracy zone after 2-3 foulers.
With some of the larger calibers and Palma guns, there is evidence that, with many barrels, the best scores/X-Counts are achieved with a significant number of rounds since cleaning.
I only stress this because you need to "listen" to your individual barrel to find out what IT likes, and what cleaning regimen works best for it.
Right now I do NOT presume that a just-cleaned barrel will necessarily shoot the best. I've seen too much evidence to the contrary. Some barrels do, indeed, shoot best when cleaned frequently,say, every 15 rounds). In other cases, frequent cleaning may be counter-productive.
Other barrels will get into their accuracy zone after 2-3 foulers.
With some of the larger calibers and Palma guns, there is evidence that, with many barrels, the best scores/X-Counts are achieved with a significant number of rounds since cleaning.
I only stress this because you need to "listen" to your individual barrel to find out what IT likes, and what cleaning regimen works best for it.
Right now I do NOT presume that a just-cleaned barrel will necessarily shoot the best. I've seen too much evidence to the contrary. Some barrels do, indeed, shoot best when cleaned frequently,say, every 15 rounds). In other cases, frequent cleaning may be counter-productive.
You do have a point about tubes being individuals but to always start at a known condition,clean) will get you to the barrel condition you desire faster IMHO and experience. I only use Krieger tubes on my competition rifles and only one Smith builds them so my program works,loads, bullets, powder, primer, seating depth, etc. a trick my cousin taught me
) with different barrels and even on different rifles in specific chamberings.
) with different barrels and even on different rifles in specific chamberings.
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I understand the logic in trying to go back to a "zero fouling" clean condition. The problem is what does this mean. Should you clean the bore 'til there are absolutely no signs of copper? What if there is a line of carbon at the edges of the land/groove intersection--should you clean all that out? And can you really confirm you are down to 'bare steel' without a borescope? Will you have to resort to abrasives to get the barrel truly "clean"? And what will the abrasives do, over time, to the barrel's internal dimensions. Casey at PacNor told me he had one customer who cleaned so aggressively with abrasives that he,Casey) was able to put a bullet,of the correct caliber) down the bore and it would drop right through!
In my own 6BR,3-groove PacNor) I've confirmed that absolutely no accuracy was to be gained by removing ALL the visible carbon revealed by bore-scoping. A few light streaks of carbon did not affect ES/SD nor group size. In fact the accuracy was BETTER with a bit of carbon in the tube. All that would be accomplished by cleaning the barrel down to bare steel would be to increase the number of rounds required to get back to accuracy.
But if any shooter has a good routine that works for his barrel... by all means stick to it.
Example: David Tubb told me that, with his 6XCs,shot with Boron Nitride), he goes 250 rounds or so between cleaning, and then he cleans VERY aggressively--down to bare steel. Having down so, however, he also told me he will put 25+ rounds through the bore before he shoots that barrel for record.
As with everything--different strokes for different folks. I can say though, we have a PPC project going on right now, and what we've been learning about how group size is affected by cleaning intervals would make a good episode of "Myth-busters".
On the other hand, I'm reminded that IBS 600-yard Nationals winner Sam Hall, who has the tightest-shooting, most consistent 600-yard rifle in the country right now, cleans his barrels after 15 rounds or so--and no one can argue with his results. So there are certainly no absolutes!
In my own 6BR,3-groove PacNor) I've confirmed that absolutely no accuracy was to be gained by removing ALL the visible carbon revealed by bore-scoping. A few light streaks of carbon did not affect ES/SD nor group size. In fact the accuracy was BETTER with a bit of carbon in the tube. All that would be accomplished by cleaning the barrel down to bare steel would be to increase the number of rounds required to get back to accuracy.
But if any shooter has a good routine that works for his barrel... by all means stick to it.
Example: David Tubb told me that, with his 6XCs,shot with Boron Nitride), he goes 250 rounds or so between cleaning, and then he cleans VERY aggressively--down to bare steel. Having down so, however, he also told me he will put 25+ rounds through the bore before he shoots that barrel for record.
As with everything--different strokes for different folks. I can say though, we have a PPC project going on right now, and what we've been learning about how group size is affected by cleaning intervals would make a good episode of "Myth-busters".
On the other hand, I'm reminded that IBS 600-yard Nationals winner Sam Hall, who has the tightest-shooting, most consistent 600-yard rifle in the country right now, cleans his barrels after 15 rounds or so--and no one can argue with his results. So there are certainly no absolutes!
On my 6 and 30 I mostly run patches through the bore until they come out pretty clean. I am not trying for perfection, just keeping the carbon beat back.
I have not shot my 6 enough to really know how it really shoots but it appears to have no poi difference for the first shot down a clean bore. In other words, clean it, shoot 5 shots and they will be in a little pile. Not one here and one over there and another down here and then start pounding them in [ I have had bbls that were like this, the one I shot last year ].
Another thing to think about on shooting better with 'fouled' bores. Is it the fouling or a certain amount of heat needed in the bbl to get it to settle down ?????????? Lots of variables.
On my 30br if you were bold enough you could sit down for the 2nd or 3rd target and if the flags were the same as the previous target you could just start shooting X's [ at 100, 10's at 200 ]. The thing can sit on the bags for 30 mins and the next shot will go where the last one on the previous target went. I don't call it the Laser Beam for nothing
.
I have not shot my 6 enough to really know how it really shoots but it appears to have no poi difference for the first shot down a clean bore. In other words, clean it, shoot 5 shots and they will be in a little pile. Not one here and one over there and another down here and then start pounding them in [ I have had bbls that were like this, the one I shot last year ].
Another thing to think about on shooting better with 'fouled' bores. Is it the fouling or a certain amount of heat needed in the bbl to get it to settle down ?????????? Lots of variables.
On my 30br if you were bold enough you could sit down for the 2nd or 3rd target and if the flags were the same as the previous target you could just start shooting X's [ at 100, 10's at 200 ]. The thing can sit on the bags for 30 mins and the next shot will go where the last one on the previous target went. I don't call it the Laser Beam for nothing
.There are a few good articles here in the achives about cleaning with several opinions check there.
Cleaning is different between every person. I also feel it depends on the caliber.
I run two 6mmDashers for long range, and put 50 rounds through them both before cleaning. That is a full day.
Fort eh competition I shoot here in Australia, cleaning between targets means wasting one of my sighter shots fouling the barrel. If the rifle shoots all the way through with no accuracy loss, I cant see the point of cleaning.
After the last target, I run a patch through with solvent, and drive home. At home then I finish cleaing, and its all done in 30 mintues.
Last weekend I shot my PPC, Benchmark and 68 Barts. I out done 42 rounds without cleaning. I saw no loss of accuracy either. Cleaned up easy also.
I do attack the carbon first, then the copper. Bronze brush on Carbon with carbon remover, Nylon with sweets on for copper.
It works for me, but as said, every barrel, and caliber is different!
Cheers
AI
I run two 6mmDashers for long range, and put 50 rounds through them both before cleaning. That is a full day.
Fort eh competition I shoot here in Australia, cleaning between targets means wasting one of my sighter shots fouling the barrel. If the rifle shoots all the way through with no accuracy loss, I cant see the point of cleaning.
After the last target, I run a patch through with solvent, and drive home. At home then I finish cleaing, and its all done in 30 mintues.
Last weekend I shot my PPC, Benchmark and 68 Barts. I out done 42 rounds without cleaning. I saw no loss of accuracy either. Cleaned up easy also.
I do attack the carbon first, then the copper. Bronze brush on Carbon with carbon remover, Nylon with sweets on for copper.
It works for me, but as said, every barrel, and caliber is different!
Cheers
AI
Moderator said:
Ok here it is again for those that have not seen it--btw I have scoped my tubes enough times that 90% my cleaning was spot on the 1st time! Never do I use an abrasive to get the tube to bare metal:
Proper Barrel Break-in
ensures long Barrel Life
Proper barrel break-in procedures are crucial for top accuracy and performance. More barrels are damaged by cleaning rods than by any amount of regular shooting a person may do. If not done correctly, one can do more harm than good.
The barrel break-in technique we endorse, is the “Speedy Method†named after Speedy Gonzalez, owner of S.G.& Y Rifles. Speedy is well known in Benchrest disciplines; national champion, world record holder, and Hall of Fame member in the National Benchrest Shooters Association,NBRSA). He has given permission to share with you, his expert advice on the correct method of barrel break-in and cleaning.
Rifle Cleaning the Right Way
Barrel break-in. Many of our customers upon taking delivery of their new rifle or barrel are in a quandary as how to go about breaking in their rifle for maximum life and accuracy. With so much written in magazines these days stating use this, don’t use that, brush, don’t brush...what’s a person to do?? At S.G.& Y. Rifles, we have a unique opportunity to inspect many rifle barrels on a daily basis with our video borescope. Consequently, we see the results of a variety of barrel break-in and cleaning procedures, and most of them leave the rifle owners with their mouth agape when they see the fruits of their misinformed labor on our color monitor. We have seen practically new barrels ruined with less than a hundred rounds shot through them by some of the crazy and sometimes humorous barrel break-in methods. Anyway here goes for what it’s worth.
,Speedy is correct about the Bore Scopes-----I have watched him look at many a tube and find all kinds of horrors that the owners would and did swear they were clean because the patch came out white!)
A. Bore guides- If you don’t have one, get one! Without a good bore guide you are just wasting your time trying to break-in a barrel or cleaning it for that matter. More rifle barrels are destroyed by cleaning without a bore guide than by shooting! There are many types and brands of bore guides available on the market and range in price from $5.00 to $50.00. The only one we recommend is the Lucas two-piece bore guide. They are the best insurance you can buy for that new barrel. All other bore guides in my opinion are only good for keeping the solvents out of the trigger and action.
B. Solvents - We recommend Sweets 7.62 for copper and a *solvent mix of our own,Actually Pat McMillan gave me this formula) for powder fouling and for cleaning/storing your rifle for the next match or season. This Speedy Formula is made as follows:
Mix 2/3 rds. Hoppes No. 9 Plus Black Powder solvent with 1/3rd. Regular Hoppes No. 9 Nitro solvent. Let this mixture set overnight and it will form a sort of gel that adheres very well to the brush and cuts powder fouling to a minimum.
* Note: Butches Boreshine may be substituted for this Speedy formula.
C. Procedure for “Break-in†- Before firing that first shot, clean the barrel as if it had been shot by following these simple steps.
Step 1. Insert Lucas bore guide into receiver and chamber. If you don’t have one stop here and get one, if not, just shoot your rifle and forget trying to take any care of your barrel at all. If you do have one, proceed, and give yourself one “At-A-Boy†for being astute enough to have purchased the proper tools for the job.
Note: One “Aw-Sh*t†wipes out ALL “At-A-Boysâ€.
Step 2. Run one wet patch of Sweets through the bore and let soak for approximately 30 seconds. Do not patch this out.
Step 3. Next, run the brush through the barrel only enough to expose the entire brush. Yes, I know that you still have 12 more inches of cleaning rod you could push out the end of your barrel but we want to protect that new crown. Also, if that rod hangs out that far, you will eventually start wearing down the rifling at the crown from about 4 to 7 o’clock. This is very bad “JU-JU†for accuracy. OK, back to our next step. Once the brush is exposed, saturate it well with our Speedy Formula or Butch’s Boreshine and SLOWLY run the brush through the barrel 10 complete back and forth passes while keeping the rod as straight as possible. This is when the Lucas bore guide really pays for itself! Remember, the key word is slowly. We are not trying to break any land speed records today. Let this sit a minute or two and proceed to the next step.
Step 4. After you have let the barrel soak for a few moments, saturate a patch with the Speedy Formula or Butch’s Boreshine and pass it through the bore. Follow this with 2 dry patches and then dry the chamber with Brake Kleen or lighter fluid. Next, gently wipe the crown off with a soft cloth and lube your bolt,lets not gall the lugs just yet). Now, your ready to shoot your first shot. Then follow the schedule below to complete your barrel break-in.
1. Clean barrel / lube bolt / 1 shot.
2. Clean barrel / lube bolt / 5 shots.
3. Clean barrel / lube bolt / 10 shots.
4. Clean barrel / lube bolt / 10 to 15 shots and clean again.
D. Additional Barrel Break-in and Cleaning Tips -
1. Each time you clean you may also follow the last dry patch with a patch soaked with LOCK-EEZ. This is a graphite powder suspended in a quick evaporating carrier that coats the bore slightly before passing that first round through a completely dry bore.
2. We are always asked about powder fouling and how to remove it. The only product that we have seen that really does a good job on powder fouling, especially on the carbon ring that forms just ahead of where the neck ends in the chamber, is IOSSO Bore Paste. This is used with a Pro-Shot nylon bristle brush and worked slowly in the neck and throat areas, then slowly down the entire bore. Follow this up with a few wet patches, then dry the bore as usual, and your ready to shoot.
E. Follow the outline above for your regular cleaning program and I promise that your rifle barrels will deliver their greatest accuracy and life without a lot of grief and hours of wondering if they are clean.
Good Shooting,
Speedy Gonzalez
,I have been using this with some minor modifications for several years and the Bore Scope will tell you exactly when everything is in good shape ----- esp the dreaded carbon ring in the forward area of the chamber!!)
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As noted, there are many effective ways to clean and break-in barrels.
Regarding the above comments, many of the points are helpful. However:
"...SLOWLY run the brush through the barrel 10 complete back and forth passes while keeping the rod as straight as possible."
A few back and forth strokes should not cause any problems. But in general I strongly recommend AGAINST running a bronze brush back and forth across the crown and going both ways in the bore. Brushing back and forth with bronze is a practice I would discourage based on the advice of the nation's leading barrel-makers.
Many successful benchrest shooters DO saw their cleaning rods back and forth, and they will tell you emphatically that anyone who says this is potentially harmful is a complete idiot. But consider this: a) back and forth brushing is definitely not necessary to clean a barrel to peak accuracy levels; and b) back and forth brushing is currently disfavored by Krieger, Bartlein, Broughton, and Benchmark barrel makers. It is also interesting that those point-blank benchresters who most strongly advocate aggressive back and forth bronze brushing are also typically tossing their barrels after 600-800 rounds because the accuracy has "gone off."
In Precision Shooting recently, new short-range BR Hall of Famer and 2007 Shooter of the Year Joe Krupa opined that the best accuracy of a barrel may be only 100 rounds! Interestingly, he uses JB and Iosso and brushes aggressively after every group:
"Today's competition requires that anyone who wants to be in the 'hunt' use a fresh barrel. Most of the top competitors will not enter a big match with more than a hundred rounds on the barrel. I actually prefer to have 50 or fewer rounds. I don't use a complicated break-in procedure for the barrels I shoot. Many shooters argue about the life of a match barrel... Not many barrels with more than 700 rounds win the big matches. Many will not shoot at top levels that long and expire at 300 to 400 rounds."
If barrels are losing accuracy after a few hundred rounds--could it be that something done to the bore or crown is to blame? What else could it be? Should we be suspicious of abrasives and over-aggressive brushing?
I have personally seen a PPC shoot consistent low one and zero groups outdoors for seven straight groups. This barrel had 350 rounds through it, and has never had a bronze brush or abrasives in it. It also shot a 0.110 group with 50 rounds through it since cleaning...
Regarding IOSSO paste, it will help remove the carbon ring. However, I would minimize the use of JB, Iosso and any abrasives. Consider this observation from Gale McMillan regarding abrasives:
"Look at it this way, A barrel starts out with nice sharp areas of the corners of the rifling. Along the way you build a big fire in it a few thousand times and it burns the corners off. Now take a barrel that to break in you put an abrasive on a patch and run it in and out. The result is that you take the corners off the rifling so that all that fire which would have started with sharp rifling is now starting with rifling that is thousands of rounds old. Which means that a lot of the life is gone.....To top this off I will relate a true happening. I built a bench rest rifle for a customer and as usual I fired 5 groups of 5 shots and calculated the aggregate. It was good enough to see that the rifle was capable of winning the Nationals so I shipped it. I got a call from the new owner saying how happy he was with it the way it shot. About 4 weeks later the rifle showed up with a note saying it wouldn't shoot. Sure enough when I tested it it was shooting groups three times the size if the ones I had shot before I shipped it. When I bore scoped it the barrel looked like a mirror and the rifling wasn't square it was half round. From that time on I put a flyer in each gun saying if any abrasive was use in it voided the Warrantee. Now I am not trying to stop you from doing what you want but just inform you what is happening when you use JB."
Regarding the carbon ring, there is some evidence that the use of petrochemical solvents and oils may exacerbate the formation of the ring,because these products burn off in the throat area). I have found it interesting that, in some of our test barrels which used Wipe-Out,a water-based solvent) as the primary cleaner with no oiling, bore-scoping of the throat areas revealed pristine throat condition, with NO carbon ring. And this was after 500+ rounds with extended shot strings without cleaning.
I'm sure Slowpoke has had great success with the cleaning methodology shared above. As noted, if you have a system that works, and you're getting good accuracy, then stick with it. But I do NOT think the "Speedy method" described above, in its entirety, represents the most up-to-date thinking on the subject.
And regarding break-in, there are certainly opposing viewpoints as to its utility. Gale McMillan famously wrote that the one-shot, one-clean break-in process was not necessary and did little more than reduce barrel life. Was he correct? You have to make up your own mind, but here is what Gale had to say:
Link: http://www.6mmbr.com/GailMcMbreakin.html
Excerpt: As a barrel maker I have looked in thousands of new and used barrels with a bore scope and I will tell you that if every one followed the prescribed [one shot, one clean] break-in method, a very large number would do more harm than good. The reason you hear of the gain in accuracy is because if you chamber a barrel with a reamer that has a dull throater instead of cutting clean sharp rifling it smears a burr up on the down wind side of the rifling. It takes from one to two hundred rounds to burn this burr out and the rifle to settle down and shoot its best. Any one who chambers rifle barrels has tolerances on how dull to let the reamer get and factories let them go longer than any competent smith would.
Another tidbit to consider--take a 300 Win Mag that has a life expectancy of 1000 rounds. Use 10% of it up with your break-in procedure. For every 10 barrels the barrel-maker makes he has to make one more just to take care of the break-in. No wonder barrel-makers like to see this.
It all got started when a barrel maker that I know started putting break-in instructions in the box with each barrel he shipped a few years ago. I asked him how he figured it would help and his reply was if they shoot 100 rounds breaking in this barrel that's total life is 3000 rounds and I make 1000 barrels a year just figure how many more barrels I will get to make. He had a point; it definately will shorten the barrel life.
Regarding the above comments, many of the points are helpful. However:
"...SLOWLY run the brush through the barrel 10 complete back and forth passes while keeping the rod as straight as possible."
A few back and forth strokes should not cause any problems. But in general I strongly recommend AGAINST running a bronze brush back and forth across the crown and going both ways in the bore. Brushing back and forth with bronze is a practice I would discourage based on the advice of the nation's leading barrel-makers.
Many successful benchrest shooters DO saw their cleaning rods back and forth, and they will tell you emphatically that anyone who says this is potentially harmful is a complete idiot. But consider this: a) back and forth brushing is definitely not necessary to clean a barrel to peak accuracy levels; and b) back and forth brushing is currently disfavored by Krieger, Bartlein, Broughton, and Benchmark barrel makers. It is also interesting that those point-blank benchresters who most strongly advocate aggressive back and forth bronze brushing are also typically tossing their barrels after 600-800 rounds because the accuracy has "gone off."
In Precision Shooting recently, new short-range BR Hall of Famer and 2007 Shooter of the Year Joe Krupa opined that the best accuracy of a barrel may be only 100 rounds! Interestingly, he uses JB and Iosso and brushes aggressively after every group:
"Today's competition requires that anyone who wants to be in the 'hunt' use a fresh barrel. Most of the top competitors will not enter a big match with more than a hundred rounds on the barrel. I actually prefer to have 50 or fewer rounds. I don't use a complicated break-in procedure for the barrels I shoot. Many shooters argue about the life of a match barrel... Not many barrels with more than 700 rounds win the big matches. Many will not shoot at top levels that long and expire at 300 to 400 rounds."
If barrels are losing accuracy after a few hundred rounds--could it be that something done to the bore or crown is to blame? What else could it be? Should we be suspicious of abrasives and over-aggressive brushing?
I have personally seen a PPC shoot consistent low one and zero groups outdoors for seven straight groups. This barrel had 350 rounds through it, and has never had a bronze brush or abrasives in it. It also shot a 0.110 group with 50 rounds through it since cleaning...
Regarding IOSSO paste, it will help remove the carbon ring. However, I would minimize the use of JB, Iosso and any abrasives. Consider this observation from Gale McMillan regarding abrasives:
"Look at it this way, A barrel starts out with nice sharp areas of the corners of the rifling. Along the way you build a big fire in it a few thousand times and it burns the corners off. Now take a barrel that to break in you put an abrasive on a patch and run it in and out. The result is that you take the corners off the rifling so that all that fire which would have started with sharp rifling is now starting with rifling that is thousands of rounds old. Which means that a lot of the life is gone.....To top this off I will relate a true happening. I built a bench rest rifle for a customer and as usual I fired 5 groups of 5 shots and calculated the aggregate. It was good enough to see that the rifle was capable of winning the Nationals so I shipped it. I got a call from the new owner saying how happy he was with it the way it shot. About 4 weeks later the rifle showed up with a note saying it wouldn't shoot. Sure enough when I tested it it was shooting groups three times the size if the ones I had shot before I shipped it. When I bore scoped it the barrel looked like a mirror and the rifling wasn't square it was half round. From that time on I put a flyer in each gun saying if any abrasive was use in it voided the Warrantee. Now I am not trying to stop you from doing what you want but just inform you what is happening when you use JB."
Regarding the carbon ring, there is some evidence that the use of petrochemical solvents and oils may exacerbate the formation of the ring,because these products burn off in the throat area). I have found it interesting that, in some of our test barrels which used Wipe-Out,a water-based solvent) as the primary cleaner with no oiling, bore-scoping of the throat areas revealed pristine throat condition, with NO carbon ring. And this was after 500+ rounds with extended shot strings without cleaning.
I'm sure Slowpoke has had great success with the cleaning methodology shared above. As noted, if you have a system that works, and you're getting good accuracy, then stick with it. But I do NOT think the "Speedy method" described above, in its entirety, represents the most up-to-date thinking on the subject.
And regarding break-in, there are certainly opposing viewpoints as to its utility. Gale McMillan famously wrote that the one-shot, one-clean break-in process was not necessary and did little more than reduce barrel life. Was he correct? You have to make up your own mind, but here is what Gale had to say:
Link: http://www.6mmbr.com/GailMcMbreakin.html
Excerpt: As a barrel maker I have looked in thousands of new and used barrels with a bore scope and I will tell you that if every one followed the prescribed [one shot, one clean] break-in method, a very large number would do more harm than good. The reason you hear of the gain in accuracy is because if you chamber a barrel with a reamer that has a dull throater instead of cutting clean sharp rifling it smears a burr up on the down wind side of the rifling. It takes from one to two hundred rounds to burn this burr out and the rifle to settle down and shoot its best. Any one who chambers rifle barrels has tolerances on how dull to let the reamer get and factories let them go longer than any competent smith would.
Another tidbit to consider--take a 300 Win Mag that has a life expectancy of 1000 rounds. Use 10% of it up with your break-in procedure. For every 10 barrels the barrel-maker makes he has to make one more just to take care of the break-in. No wonder barrel-makers like to see this.
It all got started when a barrel maker that I know started putting break-in instructions in the box with each barrel he shipped a few years ago. I asked him how he figured it would help and his reply was if they shoot 100 rounds breaking in this barrel that's total life is 3000 rounds and I make 1000 barrels a year just figure how many more barrels I will get to make. He had a point; it definately will shorten the barrel life.
Hey if it works but Speedy is a HOF shooter in both NBRSA and IBS, has held world records and builds some pretty good stuff. I follow his process pretty closely and when we shoot together he does pretty much the same. It does work but opinions vary--the tube makers have to say that because not everybody brushes with the same intensity and that will cause damage if done incorrectly.
My tubes have not had the crowns damaged but then again I am very careful to keep solvent on the brush and to use the correct Lucas bore guide.
After 20 rounds I know if a tube is coming off of one of my match rifles Speedy knows after 10 or less. Amazing that he can tell but he has the skins on the wall so who am I to argue. Also Iosso the bore with special attention in the chamber area prior to shoting the first time. Of course the B-scope can help you in this task but this modification keeps my break-in to usually 10 to 20 rounds fwiw..
My tubes have not had the crowns damaged but then again I am very careful to keep solvent on the brush and to use the correct Lucas bore guide.
After 20 rounds I know if a tube is coming off of one of my match rifles Speedy knows after 10 or less. Amazing that he can tell but he has the skins on the wall so who am I to argue. Also Iosso the bore with special attention in the chamber area prior to shoting the first time. Of course the B-scope can help you in this task but this modification keeps my break-in to usually 10 to 20 rounds fwiw..
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Administrator
dantiff2 said:
Every time you put brush and rod through the barrel you can, potentially, do some harm. If you clean every 10 rounds vs. every 50 you'll be cleaning 5 times as often.
There is no question, when using abrasives, the more often you do it, the more you'll be polishing down the lands--just a tiny bit at a time... but it adds up, as Gale McMillan noted.
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