Am I on the right track?

[jasmine2501]

I have been shooting rifles and pistols for many years but I've only ever had about an hour of formal instruction - I've taken safety classes, but that doesn't count as shooting lessons. I have a friend who is a rifle instructor and he gives me advice but I won't ask him to train me for free. I will pay for some sessions with him but I want to be sure I've got the basics down first.

I know all the shooting fundamentals. What I'm wondering about here is whether I've made the right choices for my rifle and if I should continue in this direction or go some other way. I plan to build an AR-10 (.308) over the next year and I want that one to be capable of the 1000 yard shot. I will also entertain suggestions on better options, I'm not stuck on the AR-10. I AM stuck on the idea of an ergonomically correct setup, and being able to adjust things to my body.

I wouldn't say I'm an idiot, but I really don't know what I'm doing from an accurate shooting perspective, I've just made changes that "feel right" to me, based on the advice I was given that anything that "feels wrong" probably is.

So, here's a video about my AR-15 and how I set it up for "long range" shooting - which in the AR world means more than ten feet, lol

I almost always shoot this rifle at 100 yards, sometimes at 50 - but this weekend I will have access to a much longer range, and my intention is to put at least 50 rounds downrange to 200 yards or more. I don't show it in the video but I have the standard bipod and shooting bags that I use. I guess I'm just wanting opinions about my opinions, which are clearly stated in the video. For those who might not want to watch it, the description of the rifle is in the video description (and below).

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LhNaG429oc[/youtube]

*Stock flash hider
*Stock A2 Gas block/sight
Aluminum Quad Rail
Rubber Grips
Bushnell 1-4x scope
Alamo Four Star quick-release scope mount
Raptor Amibdextrous Charging Handle
Battle Arms Development Ambidextrous Safety Lever
Magpul MIAD grip
Geiselle Two Stage trigger
Magpul 10-rd Mags
Magpul PRS Stock

(And yeah, I'm fully aware what I said about mils on the scope is totally wrong. I was thinking 0.1 MOA and I knew it was wrong when I said it )

 

[NateHaler]

Go to a long range match, or three, in your area. Talk to real people, in person. Never, ever, have I paid for training. Not to learn how to shoot, nor ride a bike, nor compete in triathlon, etc. Many (if not the VAST majority) of us are self taught, by observation, discussion, etc.

Go to a match. You'll meet the right sort of people, and be able to see -- in person -- what's what.

 

[ar15topgun]

Forget the ar-10 and build a tube gun. Bolt action using an Eliseo set-up.

 

[stool]

i like ar10-'s.
but it would be close to last on my list as a 1000yd rifle.

there are small companies that make larger platform ar's in larger calibers/cases.

a 300 wsm would work or a 338lm.

even a 30'06 can match what use to be done with a 300 wm.

 

[jasmine2501]

Go to a match. You'll meet the right sort of people, and be able to see -- in person -- what's what.

Sure yeah, that's general good advice, and if I can find a match in this area, I'll go, but most of them are really far away. I'm pretty social but I don't run into very many people at my range, it's mostly a pistol shooting place. So, that's kinda why I was asking here. I guess I was hoping folks would look at how my rifle is set up and let me know if it was the right choice - this is a gun build question basically. I am one of the better shooters at my range, so I've exhausted the knowledge in my local area. I know there's always smart people on the internet, so just reaching out for more information than what I get locally.

(But I'm also kinda friendly and helpful so this is also to intro myself here)

 

[DOGCAPPER]

Build a hot 6mm 9 twist shoot 80 95 gr bullet get at least 6.5x25 scope.LT

 

[jasmine2501]

i like ar10-'s.
but it would be close to last on my list as a 1000yd rifle.

Why?

If this is one of those questions that noobs always ask but it's already answered somewhere, please help me find the answer, I'm pretty good at Google, but I'm not looking for an answer, I'm kinda looking for how do I find and learn the information to make the decisions myself. So, if I've picked something wrong, please say why. Google does not say an AR-10 is bad for 1000-yard shots, so it's hard for me to understand why someone would say that? I don't know enough to even hazard a wild guess at why you might say that?

Here's an example of what I'm facing and why I'm asking...
https://www.google.com/search?q=best+rifle+for+long+range (how is a beginner supposed to make sense of that? And, is an article from 2009 still valid today?)

 

[Scott Harris]

Sounds like you are at the beginning of the journey jasmine. I would not obsess about 1,000 yard shooting. Instead figure out what is practical for you to get trigger time on. What range facilities and competitions do you have available? Build a rifle that will allow you to become competitive at that activity. I will tell you to ditch the AR-10 idea if you are serious about long-range and accuracy. A bolt action is the approved solution for long-range precision. Sure, everyone wants to think outside the box Go try it. But if you are serious about long-range accuracy, you will eventually end up with a bolt action. Savage makes an F-TR rifle that is a great choice out of the box. They also have some 6BR models that will perform exceptionally at 600 and less. Building a custom rifle is a longer discussion.

 

[nwflycaster]

You didn't say exactly what kind of shooting you're looking to do. I assume you're talking f-class since you mentioned in your description a telescopic sight. If that's the case you're spending a lot of money to have a sub par rifle right out of the gate. Do as others have mentioned and have a bolt action built that is more for that style of shooting.
Now if your talking mid-range unsupported prone shooting you would be okay with it but still better off with a bolt action again.
And for high power xtc stuff you again would be fine with it but you may not like how far the recoil will take you off target compared to a .223 if your just learning. Oh, and you will be shooting iron sights and not telescopic for unsupported prone and xtc.

What kind of friend would even consider charging you for some tips? I can see maybe taking him to lunch afterwords. Just about any shooter I know will happily give advice when it's sought to anybody, friend or not.

Spend a bit of time at the rifle range and I'll bet you'll find someone practicing exactly what your looking to do and ask them any questions you may have while their not shooting.

 

[jonbearman]

First off if you plan on trying longer range shooting I would advise that you get a scope with way more power such as a sightron10-40 with the std reticle or if you like the mildot,there mil dot system in my opinin is to coarse to get used to.Take a look at the sightron sIII's because they are a really good value.I have a question about your quick release scope mount,I am not familar with that brand,is it high quality or is it something that needs attention.Will you be shooting off a bipod and is it good quality.When it come's to gun's and the accessories,you get what you pay for.Go to a match and take note's on the equipment they are actually using .Dont be afraid to approach people when they are socializing and pick their brains gentlemanly of course.

 

[hogpatrol]

You didn't say exactly what kind of shooting you're looking to do. I assume you're talking f-class since you mentioned in your description a telescopic sight. If that's the case you're spending a lot of money to have a sub par rifle right out of the gate. Do as others have mentioned and have a bolt action built that is more for that style of shooting.
Now if your talking mid-range unsupported prone shooting you would be okay with it but still better off with a bolt action again.
And for high power xtc stuff you again would be fine with it but you may not like how far the recoil will take you off target compared to a .223 if your just learning. Oh, and you will be shooting iron sights and not telescopic for unsupported prone and xtc.

What kind of friend would even consider charging you for some tips? I can see maybe taking him to lunch afterwords. Just about any shooter I know will happily give advice when it's sought to anybody, friend or not.

Spend a bit of time at the rifle range and I'll bet you'll find someone practicing exactly what your looking to do and ask them any questions you may have while their not shooting.

Good advice. Keep in mind spending a ton of money on fancy precision equipment will NOT make you a shooter at any distance. I see this mistake being made almost every trip to the range.

 

[jasmine2501]

OK thanks a lot guys, that's the kind of info I'm looking for. Randomly addressing things mentioned...

I'm not a rank beginner. I have been shooting guns for 30 years but never been serious about it till the past five years or so, and I've focused on pistols for defense because frankly, I never thought I could be good with a rifle. However, I'm not bad with a rifle, and I really enjoy shooting the AR in the video, and my 22. I do this for the reasons explained in the video - I enjoy the peace of mind and body you need, and the collision of that state of mind with the bang bang of the gun. I'm a computer programmer and my ability to remain calm in the face of adversity is a skill I like to keep sharp in a number of ways. I also have a little interest in getting back into hunting. I have hunted small game in the winter in Kansas and Nebraska, but never any big game. I am a little rusty but I am experienced in the outdoors - been a 'back country' camper since I could pick up a pack. My dad literally wrote the book on climbing Long's Peak.

So... making the 1000 yard shot is more of a dream goal than anything else. I do not consider it a practical skill, as I would never shoot at game that far away. I am more interested in it because I want to push myself, see what I can do, and that seems like benchmark in the shooting world. What I want to develop more than anything else, but didn't mention because I figured it goes along with it, is the ability to be deadly accurate at hunting ranges with a rifle suitable for big game, deer and stuff, not lions and tiger and bears...

So, the 5.56 rifle was purchased for fun, mostly, I never thought I would be any good with it and I didn't add the scope until recently, I was using stock iron sights. My range is limited to 100 yards so that was fine for a while. I didn't do those mods for fun or because I like spending money, and I had positive results with each one. I did those changes so the rifle would fit me better, most of the changes are because I shoot left handed.

The Alamo Four Star scope mount is excellent. It doesn't really need any attention. It clamps down tightly with the screws and you have to unscrew them, then push on them to release the rail. It doesn't move as far as I can tell, but it is a tactical accessory, it's not for super precision. It fits tightly into the rail but not perfectly, it can slide just a hair before you tighten it down, so I just push it forward to eliminate that. So, yeah it has some "play" in it. But again, I'm not going for super long range shots with it either.

I will look into bolt-action rifles for sure. I just like the ergonomic options of the AR platforms. So, can someone suggest a good bolt-action rifle with those characteristics? Or, does it matter? I shoot from a bench rest mostly with just shooting bags and the bipod, so the fit of the gun makes a big difference to me - and fitting it to myself better did improve my accuracy. My 22 is harder to shoot because it's the wrong shape. If things aren't adjustable, can I get them fitted to me? I'm willing to spend the money, and I'm willing to start with something small, and explore to learn what my needs might be. I've looked at Savage and Ruger 308s - I could start with one of those and move up to something else later.

On the getting advice from a friend. He is a professional instructor, that's how he makes his living. So, he's happy to help me with stuff and answer questions, but he could also give me a more formal coaching session, which I would be happy to pay for. I learned a long time ago to respect the expertise of professionals and that it's worth paying for sometimes. I will teach people to fly RC airplanes for a smile, but I won't fix your computer for free, that's how I make my living.


Here's an example of something I've looked at and like, but it's a lot of money to put down if you're not sure.
http://www.gunwerks.com/Shooting-Systems/verdict

 

[savagedasher]

I don't think their is a weekend at Manatee gun club. that some new shooter do get ask to shoot a few shots at what ever Yardage we are shooting. By some member or several. We are talking about building a gun and supplying every thing for a new shooter just join us. Nothing makes my weekend better then to ask a 8 year old if he want to shoot 1000yds. 100% of the time the child out shoots his dad. My advice is to ask and listen. Larry

 

[johnu]

So, the 5.56 rifle was purchased for fun, mostly, I never thought I would be any good with it and I didn't add the scope until recently, I was using stock iron sights. My range is limited to 100 yards so that was fine for a while.

You can hone your skills practicing at 100 yds with a rimfire rifle - inexpensive, too (assuming you can find ammo!)

I just like the ergonomic options of the AR platforms. So, can someone suggest a good bolt-action rifle with those characteristics?

Do a little research into the tube guns like was mentioned.

John

 

[stool]

tell that to the us military shooting semi AUTO BARRETT'S in 50 bmg...

Sounds like you are at the beginning of the journey jasmine. I would not obsess about 1,000 yard shooting. Instead figure out what is practical for you to get trigger time on. What range facilities and competitions do you have available? Build a rifle that will allow you to become competitive at that activity. I will tell you to ditch the AR-10 idea if you are serious about long-range and accuracy. A bolt action is the approved solution for long-range precision. Sure, everyone wants to think outside the box Go try it. But if you are serious about long-range accuracy, you will eventually end up with a bolt action. Savage makes an F-TR rifle that is a great choice out of the box. They also have some 6BR models that will perform exceptionally at 600 and less. Building a custom rifle is a longer discussion.

 

[stool]

308 win holds or did hold small group record at 600yds, but the case volume kills it for anything much longer (ignoring the palma style matches)...dont ask.
you need something bigger if you want an ar for 1000yd.....maybe one of the newer 6.5's.

will a 308 win bullet go that far, yes. can an average shooter shoot it well at 1000yd, no.

you need to do more reading on long distance shooting.

i like ar10-'s.
but it would be close to last on my list as a 1000yd rifle.

Why?

If this is one of those questions that noobs always ask but it's already answered somewhere, please help me find the answer, I'm pretty good at Google, but I'm not looking for an answer, I'm kinda looking for how do I find and learn the information to make the decisions myself. So, if I've picked something wrong, please say why. Google does not say an AR-10 is bad for 1000-yard shots, so it's hard for me to understand why someone would say that? I don't know enough to even hazard a wild guess at why you might say that?

Here's an example of what I'm facing and why I'm asking...
https://www.google.com/search?q=best+rifle+for+long+range (how is a beginner supposed to make sense of that? And, is an article from 2009 still valid today?)

 

[jasmine2501]

You can hone your skills practicing at 100 yds with a rimfire rifle - inexpensive, too (assuming you can find ammo!)

Do a little research into the tube guns like was mentioned.

John

Yes, I do practice with the 22 quite a lot. It is cheap to shoot and a lot of fun.

Are you talking about something like this? I had never heard of this, thanks...
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek074.html

 

[placek59]

Welcome first of all, --Well..... Do you reload or are you planning on starting to reload (I might have missed it if you mentioned it earlier)? If not, I would stick with either a .308 or .223 (neither or which will be great at 1k, but are capable at 600) due to cost of ammo. You could get a savage benchrest/f class in either caliber for around 800 used. You could also get a decent varmint upper for your AR for about the same cost, maybe a little less. Pay attention to the twist rates because you will want to shoot heavier bullets.

If you are planning on reloading, then my friend... it's time to have some fun! You already have a nice lower with a good trigger and PRS stock. You could build an upper in a "hot-rod" 6mm and just switch uppers when you get to the range. I have a 6.5 Grendel but haven't yet shot it much, especially at any distance, but they are supposed to buck the wind well etc...(insert bs here).... The 6mm AR, 6mm woa spc and I am sure there are some other variants out there that should get you to 1000 if you so desire would probably do the trick. If you are set on an AR10 platform, don't overlook the dpms LR260 or 6.5 creedmoore. I have an LR308 that I love and shoots good. I haven't really heard of any bad shooting DPMS varmint upper.

If you are not dead set on a semi-auto, I would look hard at the Savage line. They are tough to beat in their price range. I don't know what your price range is, but for 900ish they are tough to beat. That would be a model 12 target action in a 6.5-284 or 6.5 creedmoore... or keep cruising the classifieds for a good deal.

If you all this information from everyone makes your head spin a little bit, buy a higher power, quality scope and see what your m&p 15 can do as it is. You will need a higher power scope eventually anyway, and why not get it first to practice with. I would recommend something in the 6-24 range. Sightron has a really nice scope for the price, and there are many quality ones out there with a good warranty for a good price. See Weaver, Sightron, Nikon, Burris, Leupold, Vortex, etc... If you go that route, just remember to take it slow at the range because your carbine barrel will heat up faster and then shots will "wander" as the barrel gets hot. You may also be surprised by how much reloaded/tuned ammo will do for your rifle. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a fast twist carbine out to 300+.

Nothing that I have said here is gospel by any means, just my opinion on how to start out without breaking the bank. Don't be in a hurry, check out the gun shops, sporting goods stores (to see what manufacturers stocks fit you best or have aftermarkets available), classifieds, etc.. and wait for a good deal.

 

[jasmine2501]

Thanks for the responses! Just letting you know I haven't forgotten about this, I've been doing research and practicing. The tactical range was a lot more fun than I expected, and I totally forgot to do any long range stuff. I'll remember next time. I spent most of the day doing pistol practice, and the rifle targets were "man sized" so they weren't much of a challenge for me even at 200 yards. I didn't want to bother the host too much but next time I'll have him put some smaller targets out there.

Anyway, I had a ton of fun. I am open to comments on my stance and stuff here, but I know it's not long range stuff. I think for the standing shots I need to put my weight forward a bit more, maybe find some flat ground to stand on. (No, I'm not the dude in the preview shooting upside-down)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Piy9vQewRXk[/youtube]

Oh also... what kind of sight is in this picture? Is it magnified somehow? I couldn't find any information about this, don't even know what it's called, but I see the shooters in the competitions using it a lot?
http://accurateshooter.net/GOTW/eliseor5topx640.jpg