I have purchased some Nosler .221FB brass to turn into 20VT. My thinking is to obtain Redding's 20VT FL neck bushing and the neck sizing bushing dies along with the needed bushings to reduce the neck from .22 caliber to .20 caliber. I'm waiting until I get my brass to measure the necks before I buy the bushings. What I was thinking is buying bushings in .242, .238, .234, .230 and then a finish size of .227 or what ever I'll need to create the right neck tension for bullet seating. I don't want to reduce the neck size by more than .004 at a time which is why I was thinking of buying the five different bushings.
Am I on the right path to create 20VT brass?
- Thread starter BaconFat
- Start date
You aren't thinking quite right IMO. Brass work hardens every time you size it, whether a little at a time or one reasonably big jump. If I was doing it, I would get a 20VT body die for the 1st step, then use a bushing FL die for the final step. After that, you should be good to go with just the FL bushing die. Annealing after forming would probably be a good thing, but maybe not absolutely necessary. Of course you need to also check headspace for die setup, chamber OAL, and loaded neck diameter. IMO it is worth the effort to measure your chamber before starting so you know where you want to end up for that particular rifle. There are several inexpensive tools for checking headspace & bullet seating depth (I use the old Stoney Point tools, now Hornady). Sinclairs sells little spuds to make chamber OAL gages from so you will know the trim length for your particular rifle. Chamber neck diameter can be estimated by measuring the neck diameter of a piece of fired brass and adding .001". Hope this helps; let me know if you need anything else.
The reason I came up with my plan was because it has been drilled into my brain to not work the neck more than .005 at a time so the concentricity can keep as straight as possible. I've been using .003 to .004 when I neck size my .308Win brass. So I guess concentricity should take a backseat in the forming stage to keep from over working the brass and the neck will straighten out after the first firing. Reducing the number of bushings I should get is just fine with me since they're a bit pricey.
I already have the Hornady bullet comparator tool or OAL gauge and I was going to buy a .221FB modified case and size it to 20VT.
By the way, this work is for my new Cooper Model 38 in a Montana Varminter stock.
I already have the Hornady bullet comparator tool or OAL gauge and I was going to buy a .221FB modified case and size it to 20VT.
By the way, this work is for my new Cooper Model 38 in a Montana Varminter stock.
I don't think those first two bushing dimensions are correct as the die opening before the bushing measures about .234" in my Redding FL bushing die. BTW, I think the tool Smokinjoe was referring to is the Hornady headspace guage not the Hornady seating depth tool. You'll want to set the shoulder back enough so your round chambers properly and this tool is essential in doing so. I'm assuming your chamber is a no turn neck and chamber length is the standard 1.400". I anneal first, pull the guts out my Redding 20VT die, and then size the case without any bushing, that brings the neck down to .233". I then size with a .229" bushing and then finally to .226" for my .230 neck. I don't use the expander button, just use the blind primer punch retainer. In my opinion annealing prepares the work for forming and fireforming, and produces less case attrition during these two processes. I believe the Nosler or Norma brass is already annealed. It may not show as Norma polishes the brass before shipping.
Thanks everyone for the advice. I got my .221FB brass today and now I understand why didn't need as many neck bushings as I originally thought. This is the smallest brass I have ever seen. Between the brass and the tiny bullets I feel like I need to use forceps and tweezers to handle these things. ;D
After dealing with a few stuck .223 cases, I'm now a firm believer in FL sizing each time. If you don't already have dies, you may want to go with the Redding FL S type 20VT sizing die. Most VT owners use a Redding neck sizer and the body die, but I don't want any more stuck cases. Since I had an Arbor press I bought a Wilson seating die as it was a slightly less expensive option.
I just made my first 20VT cases about a month ago. I used the Redding FL bushing die with a .226 bushing. I have a Cooper, so I think the chamber is .232. I have been using the expander button, but found it doesn't seem to expand the neck enough to matter, and seems to be introducing some run out. Next time I size I will be eliminating the button and see what happens. I turned my necks slightly. I was amazed at how uniform the Norma brass was. Very even clean up all the way around.
My first attempt at resizing didn't fit my chamber. I had to set the die up so that the press slightly cammed over to get the case to fit the chamber. Have not had to do that since fire forming, but wanted to pass that info along to you. Was a frustrating start for me. Member Rick in Oregon was a big help with my efforts.
I just made my first 20VT cases about a month ago. I used the Redding FL bushing die with a .226 bushing. I have a Cooper, so I think the chamber is .232. I have been using the expander button, but found it doesn't seem to expand the neck enough to matter, and seems to be introducing some run out. Next time I size I will be eliminating the button and see what happens. I turned my necks slightly. I was amazed at how uniform the Norma brass was. Very even clean up all the way around.
My first attempt at resizing didn't fit my chamber. I had to set the die up so that the press slightly cammed over to get the case to fit the chamber. Have not had to do that since fire forming, but wanted to pass that info along to you. Was a frustrating start for me. Member Rick in Oregon was a big help with my efforts.
th82457
Silver $$ Contributor
I would be cautious on just sizing the necks without turning the necks. You really need to know what neck size your chamber is cut for and make sure that loaded rounds will not only fit in chamber - but will also expand enough to release the bullet on firing without excessive pressure. When I use Nosler .221 brass I size it down below bullet diameter, then run the brass on a .204 expander mandrel to get the ID true. Next step is to neck turn to clean-up, then re-size for initial loading. Just my two cents. I have a custom barrel with a fairly tight neck. I have had pressure issues when I do not verify loaded neck diameter and correct as needed. If done right - the Vartarg may become your favorite & most accurate rifle.
Terry
Terry
I appreciate all of this info as I am waiting on my barrel. Had to have a reamer made from PTG witch will provide a .232 neck with zero free-bore. I have been forming .223 brass to .221 fireball with great results so far. Soon will take things further to 20VT. I have a Redding FL die with bushings on the way. I already have the wilson bullet seating die. All fun man!
I pulled out several cases and measured the neck wall and came up with .0122" which should equate to a loaded round at .2284". That leaves me with .0018" of expansion room all around, provided all my math is correct. That seems a little snug, but all I have for comparison is my Savage .308 which has a very generous .344 chamber. I almost picked up the mandrels and another neck turning tool from PMA, but ended deciding to wait to see if I would need to turn the necks. I guess I'll revisit PMA and get a second setup to match my .308 gear.
As a shameless plug for PMA. I'd been using a K&M neck turner until I bought a PMA piece off this site's B/S/T forum. The difference between these two tools is like the difference from driving an original VW Beetle and a Mercedes S class.
I did buy the Redding Type S dies along with .229, .227 and .226 bushings and the Wilson chamber seater die. I was already using an arbor press and a Wilson chamber die for my .308 so going that route for the 20VT was a no-brainer anyway.
As a shameless plug for PMA. I'd been using a K&M neck turner until I bought a PMA piece off this site's B/S/T forum. The difference between these two tools is like the difference from driving an original VW Beetle and a Mercedes S class.
I did buy the Redding Type S dies along with .229, .227 and .226 bushings and the Wilson chamber seater die. I was already using an arbor press and a Wilson chamber die for my .308 so going that route for the 20VT was a no-brainer anyway.
I too use Wilson dies for my 20 Vartarg. I use the Redding FL die for forming. Once the cases are fireformed, I only neck size with a Wilson neck die and .226" bushing. I seat with a Wilson chamber seater. I did not mention in my previous post that I trim all new factory Fireball cases to the shortest case in the lot before sizing.
Here is what you need to do, it works like a charm.
1- Use the .20 Vartarg body die to reduce the neck and set your fireform headspace at the same time.
2- Use a .247 bushing if you are using Remington brass, or a .248 if you are using Nosler brass with the bushing neck die.
3- Load a 32 grain bullet starting out right at the lands using H4198, and move in or out in .003" increments.
4- Shoot little groups.
Pm me if you need more help.
Tony.
1- Use the .20 Vartarg body die to reduce the neck and set your fireform headspace at the same time.
2- Use a .247 bushing if you are using Remington brass, or a .248 if you are using Nosler brass with the bushing neck die.
3- Load a 32 grain bullet starting out right at the lands using H4198, and move in or out in .003" increments.
4- Shoot little groups.
Pm me if you need more help.
Tony.
I have read that you can use the Redding full Length bushing die as a body die if you take the decapping stem out? That is why I ordered the FL Redding bushing die to begin with. If this is true then seems I would be able to bump the shoulder when needed with the full length die. As these dies are expensive I figured to start out with the Redding fl bushing die and the Wilson in-line seater die. Hope I'm right about this. Most all my other dies are Forster without the bushing and have worked perfectly as far as perfect head spacing in my other rifles. I am one who would rather partial size than neck size as everything would be the same every time I size my brass.
I have read that you can simply run your .221 case directly in the Redding fl bushing 20VT die and "walla"...you have 20VT. Yes I will clean the necks up with neck turning to fit .232 chamber. I have .226 and .227 bushings only so far. Hope all this sounds right so far....at least this is what seems right reading what you guys with more experience with the 20VT have said.
I have read that you can simply run your .221 case directly in the Redding fl bushing 20VT die and "walla"...you have 20VT. Yes I will clean the necks up with neck turning to fit .232 chamber. I have .226 and .227 bushings only so far. Hope all this sounds right so far....at least this is what seems right reading what you guys with more experience with the 20VT have said.
pacificman said:I have read that you can use the Redding full Length bushing die as a body die if you take the decapping stem out? That is why I ordered the FL Redding bushing die to begin with. If this is true then seems I would be able to bump the shoulder when needed with the full length die. As these dies are expensive I figured to start out with the Redding fl bushing die and the Wilson in-line seater die. Hope I'm right about this. Most all my other dies are Forster without the bushing and have worked perfectly as far as perfect head spacing in my other rifles. I am one who would rather partial size than neck size as everything would be the same every time I size my brass.
I have read that you can simply run your .221 case directly in the Redding fl bushing 20VT die and "walla"...you have 20VT. Yes I will clean the necks up with neck turning to fit .232 chamber. I have .226 and .227 bushings only so far. Hope all this sounds right so far....at least this is what seems right reading what you guys with more experience with the 20VT have said.
If you try to reduce the factory .221 case to .20 with the .226 or .227 bushing, you will crush your case. That's where the body die comes in....
Tony.
Tony - that was not my experience. Redding Type S full length bushing die with a .226 bushing. Norma brass and Imperial die wax. One pass through the die and I had 100 perfectly formed 20VT brass. The all chambered fine and I fire formed them as the final step.
Any idea why mine came out just fine and you crushed yours? I'm curious.
Any idea why mine came out just fine and you crushed yours? I'm curious.
While trying to round up my dies I found out that 20 VT stuff is a little scarce. One of the items was the Wilson chamber seater die. I ordered one from one place, only to get an email saying we shipped everything but the seater die and one neck sizing bushings. I ended up calling three or four places and found one in stock at Bruno's, which I bought. I also found out one retailer had two shipped to them, one already spoken for but the other one was up for grabs.
If anyone is looking for a Wilson chamber seater die in 20 Vt, email me and I'll see if I can get you hooked up.
If anyone is looking for a Wilson chamber seater die in 20 Vt, email me and I'll see if I can get you hooked up.
I finally received my various dies and what not, so today I thought I'd form a couple of pieces brass. I gutted my FL die and sized the brass. So far so good. Then I
placed the .226 bushing into the neck sizing die. I adjusted the die so it made contact with the shell holder and then added less than a 1/4 turn to the die. I sized the first
piece and I ended up with a pretty big "muffin top" about half way down the neck to the shoulder. I realize that a neck size bushing die normally does not size the full length
of the neck, but I figured I have to do something about that bulge if I'm going to turn these necks. So the first thing I did was to screw down the bushing retainer all the way
down. Normally I leave the bushing a little bit loose. I also adjusted the die another 1/16 of a turn to see what would happen. I ran the brass through the neck die again
and no more "muffin top". I got the neck sized the full length all the way to the shoulder. I then chambered the empty cartridge in my rifle and the bolt closed with no
problems. The next thing I'll do is seat a bullet w/o powder or primer to make sure that will chamber and I'm good to go.
placed the .226 bushing into the neck sizing die. I adjusted the die so it made contact with the shell holder and then added less than a 1/4 turn to the die. I sized the first
piece and I ended up with a pretty big "muffin top" about half way down the neck to the shoulder. I realize that a neck size bushing die normally does not size the full length
of the neck, but I figured I have to do something about that bulge if I'm going to turn these necks. So the first thing I did was to screw down the bushing retainer all the way
down. Normally I leave the bushing a little bit loose. I also adjusted the die another 1/16 of a turn to see what would happen. I ran the brass through the neck die again
and no more "muffin top". I got the neck sized the full length all the way to the shoulder. I then chambered the empty cartridge in my rifle and the bolt closed with no
problems. The next thing I'll do is seat a bullet w/o powder or primer to make sure that will chamber and I'm good to go.
I muffin topped a couple of my brass too. I started at about 1/8 of a turn past touching the shell holder and got a very slight muffin top. I ended up going about 1/32 of a turn pass the die touching the shell holder and all my brass chambered fine. Surprisingly the two muffin top brass chambered, and fire formed perfectly.
I never could get all of my neck sized with my FL type S die. After initial sizing, I ran them over a K&M mandrel and the un-sized part of the neck was only slightly larger. I turned them all the way to the shoulder, so they are maybe .001 thinner at the base of the neck. Everyone I talked to said it wouldn't be a big deal. Time will tell.
Post some results of how it shoots.
I never could get all of my neck sized with my FL type S die. After initial sizing, I ran them over a K&M mandrel and the un-sized part of the neck was only slightly larger. I turned them all the way to the shoulder, so they are maybe .001 thinner at the base of the neck. Everyone I talked to said it wouldn't be a big deal. Time will tell.
Post some results of how it shoots.
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