looking for adivce, or pet loads for heavier projectiles in my AR platform. hand built upper with a Wilson Arms 20" 1-8 twist bull barrel, rifle length system, .223 Wylde chamber. I'm getting MOA and just over MOA groups with 52, and 55 grain projo. 62-75 is 2"+ at 100 yards. used various loads of IMR 3031, H335, IMR 4064, and RL 15 all with fairly similar results. ive also got Varget that i havent tried yet. Ive been using data from Hornady, Lyman, and Sierra load manuals mostly.
advice or load data for .223 AR wanted.
- Thread starter dieselmudder
- Start date
Go with Varget.
24.5 grains of Varget with 55gr Nosler Ballistic tips, 69gr Nosler CCs and 68gr hornady bthps all shoot .5 to .75 moa at 100 yards reliably. We're talking 5 to 10 shot groups.
77gr noslers shoot okay in my rfle with 23.2 to 23.4grs of imr 8208-xbr reliably shoots just under 1 moa. I could not get these 77gr nosler to shoot with any other powder.. terrible groups.. 1.5 inches and larger at 100 yards, even with Varget. Was about to give up on them but xbr shoots them well enough for steel.
Never fired 77 sierras, been meaning to but I pick up the blemished noslers for so cheap on their site.
My rifle has a 1-8 twist ER Shaw barrel with a 556 chamber.
24.5 grains of Varget with 55gr Nosler Ballistic tips, 69gr Nosler CCs and 68gr hornady bthps all shoot .5 to .75 moa at 100 yards reliably. We're talking 5 to 10 shot groups.
77gr noslers shoot okay in my rfle with 23.2 to 23.4grs of imr 8208-xbr reliably shoots just under 1 moa. I could not get these 77gr nosler to shoot with any other powder.. terrible groups.. 1.5 inches and larger at 100 yards, even with Varget. Was about to give up on them but xbr shoots them well enough for steel.
Never fired 77 sierras, been meaning to but I pick up the blemished noslers for so cheap on their site.
My rifle has a 1-8 twist ER Shaw barrel with a 556 chamber.
+1 to varget, also reloader 15, ar-comp, cfe223, or N140. Biggest impact to accuracy I found in my wylde chamber AR 20" Wilson barrel from WOA, was a concentricity gauge and Forster dies. Plan on trying 77nosler, 77sierra, 75 hornady, 77 berger, 73 berger. Your rifle will shoot one of those, try them all before you give up, but a good seating die is a must first.
-Mac
-Mac
thanks for the info guys, appreciate it. since ive just recently started reloading, i went pretty cheap with my first packs of bullets. Armscor BTHP, for the 62, 69, and 75's. didnt want to be burning expensive bullets in the first stages of learning. loading with Lee dies. it may be awhile before i spring for a concentricity gauge. guess i dont feel the need for that level of accuracy. i would be happy to get my groups down to about 1.5 MOA this platform will most likely be used for predator hunting, and personal target shooting. i will start loading some with the Varget soon, and use up what projectiles i currently have, then get some better quality ones.
dieselmudder said:
Understood! Stick with your H335 or RL 15 to work-up loads. don't expect too much from the Armscor BTHP, and Concentric ammo can be visually checked (just put the case on the table and rotate it while looking at the tip). If it goes into the chamber crooked it usually flied crooked too. There are plenty of references for die setup to assist in straight ammo. Best I've found are polishing/griding the seater stem to fit the bullet shape, and I had luck seating the bullet in ~4 90° steps your mileage may vary.
any recommendations on where to get some bullet sample packs? Sinclair had some listed. but not that great of a selection. or is that just due to current supply and demand?
My son and I did extensive load development work with the AR three years ago. The following is a copy of the Executive Summary of the report. If you would like to see the complete report send me an email and I will send it to you. The Executive Summary contains all most folks want to see.
Executive Summary
What is the highest velocity load that one can develop in .223 Remington, that also possesses the best accuracy from an AR15 Match Rifle platform with a 1:8 twist, 26 inch length barrel and JGS “Wylde†chamber; meeting the target (“X-ringâ€) and operational requirements of NRA Highpower National Match Course (NMC) competition?
Answering this question with a high-degree of confidence required an arduous application of the scientific method in order to produce an answer of statistically meaningful value –the primary goal of this report. The short answer to this question is 23.8gr of Alliant’s Reloader® (RE) 15 powder behind a 75gr Hornady BTHP bullet with a cartridge over-all-length (OAL) of 2.250in (a.k.a. “mag lengthâ€) for the “short†(200 & 300yds) ranges and 23.9gr of Accurate’s (MR) 2520 powder behind a 75gr Hornady A-Maxâ„¢ bullet, seated 0.015in off the lands, for the “mid†(600yd) range. In addition to this basic answer, many other aspects significant to reloading for this competitive requirement are supported by the following report:
ï‚· Total rounds expended throughout these tests: 1760. (118) 10-shot groups were fired for accuracy. (114) 10-shot strings were fired for velocity. (4) different bullets and 19 different powders were tested. An estimated 400 hours was expended in support of these tests.
 Accuracy Budget – How accurate does the load need to be to satisfy the target requirements (“X†ring dimensions) of NRA Highpower competition? One should not accept a load for application toward NRA Highpower competition with a 20-shot Mean Radius (MR) at 100 yards greater than 0.35in for the “short†range application or 0.32in for the “mid†range application. Any load that produces MR results, at 100yds, less than this should be considered highly advantageous.
 Velocity – How fast is fast? 19 different powders were initially evaluated toward answering this question. Powders which routinely produced exceptionally high velocities and accurate loads behind 77gr SMKs, 75gr HDY BTHPs (2850-2900fps range), 80gr SMKs and 75gr HDY A-Max™ (2750-2850fps range) bullets were H4895, N540, N140, MR-2520, and RE-15. For the “Short†and “Mid-Range†loads identified above, as most accurate, the average muzzle velocities are 2862fps and 2887fps, respectively.
 Load Comparison – A ranking system was established within the report to objectively compare one load vs. another based on accuracy and velocity; ranking all loads from best (high velocity/small group size) to worst with a non-dimensional number. The loads recommended above were based on this evaluation.
 Scientific Method – ALL measured data is included within this report and utilized within all evaluations –“cherry picking†the best data was not considered and no shots were omitted. A logical and rigorous process was applied toward a sequential progression from one testing phase to another in order to produce statistically meaningful results. In all cases, 10-shot groups were fired and, in many cases, repeatedly, in order to gain average results based on 20 shots; increasing the statistical confidence levels in all regards.
 Mean Radius – The Mean Radius method was employed within this research as the most effective process by which to measure group size(s); effectively “weighing†all shots within a group equally. i.e. vs. the Extreme Spread method which only values the two worst shots of a group equally.
The most significant discovery gained, as a result of this load development process, was the fact that the .223 Remington cartridge, when fired from an AR15 Match Rifle, possessed the bench-rest accuracy potential to effectively double the size of the NRA NMC “X-ring†dimension (a dimension that was originally introduced in 1967 to challenge the accuracy potential of the 30-06 cartridge). This level of accuracy will enable a Master class competitor, in NRA High Power Rifle competition, to have the potential of “X-ring†performance; humbling us all in our ability to hold as well as our rifles and ammunition will shoot. However, only with the most accurate handloads can this advantage be realized –the purpose of this report’s research. I hope you find this information useful toward your own reloading and competitive endeavors. Enjoy, and, as always, be safe in all your reloading practices.
Executive Summary
What is the highest velocity load that one can develop in .223 Remington, that also possesses the best accuracy from an AR15 Match Rifle platform with a 1:8 twist, 26 inch length barrel and JGS “Wylde†chamber; meeting the target (“X-ringâ€) and operational requirements of NRA Highpower National Match Course (NMC) competition?
Answering this question with a high-degree of confidence required an arduous application of the scientific method in order to produce an answer of statistically meaningful value –the primary goal of this report. The short answer to this question is 23.8gr of Alliant’s Reloader® (RE) 15 powder behind a 75gr Hornady BTHP bullet with a cartridge over-all-length (OAL) of 2.250in (a.k.a. “mag lengthâ€) for the “short†(200 & 300yds) ranges and 23.9gr of Accurate’s (MR) 2520 powder behind a 75gr Hornady A-Maxâ„¢ bullet, seated 0.015in off the lands, for the “mid†(600yd) range. In addition to this basic answer, many other aspects significant to reloading for this competitive requirement are supported by the following report:
ï‚· Total rounds expended throughout these tests: 1760. (118) 10-shot groups were fired for accuracy. (114) 10-shot strings were fired for velocity. (4) different bullets and 19 different powders were tested. An estimated 400 hours was expended in support of these tests.
 Accuracy Budget – How accurate does the load need to be to satisfy the target requirements (“X†ring dimensions) of NRA Highpower competition? One should not accept a load for application toward NRA Highpower competition with a 20-shot Mean Radius (MR) at 100 yards greater than 0.35in for the “short†range application or 0.32in for the “mid†range application. Any load that produces MR results, at 100yds, less than this should be considered highly advantageous.
 Velocity – How fast is fast? 19 different powders were initially evaluated toward answering this question. Powders which routinely produced exceptionally high velocities and accurate loads behind 77gr SMKs, 75gr HDY BTHPs (2850-2900fps range), 80gr SMKs and 75gr HDY A-Max™ (2750-2850fps range) bullets were H4895, N540, N140, MR-2520, and RE-15. For the “Short†and “Mid-Range†loads identified above, as most accurate, the average muzzle velocities are 2862fps and 2887fps, respectively.
 Load Comparison – A ranking system was established within the report to objectively compare one load vs. another based on accuracy and velocity; ranking all loads from best (high velocity/small group size) to worst with a non-dimensional number. The loads recommended above were based on this evaluation.
 Scientific Method – ALL measured data is included within this report and utilized within all evaluations –“cherry picking†the best data was not considered and no shots were omitted. A logical and rigorous process was applied toward a sequential progression from one testing phase to another in order to produce statistically meaningful results. In all cases, 10-shot groups were fired and, in many cases, repeatedly, in order to gain average results based on 20 shots; increasing the statistical confidence levels in all regards.
 Mean Radius – The Mean Radius method was employed within this research as the most effective process by which to measure group size(s); effectively “weighing†all shots within a group equally. i.e. vs. the Extreme Spread method which only values the two worst shots of a group equally.
The most significant discovery gained, as a result of this load development process, was the fact that the .223 Remington cartridge, when fired from an AR15 Match Rifle, possessed the bench-rest accuracy potential to effectively double the size of the NRA NMC “X-ring†dimension (a dimension that was originally introduced in 1967 to challenge the accuracy potential of the 30-06 cartridge). This level of accuracy will enable a Master class competitor, in NRA High Power Rifle competition, to have the potential of “X-ring†performance; humbling us all in our ability to hold as well as our rifles and ammunition will shoot. However, only with the most accurate handloads can this advantage be realized –the purpose of this report’s research. I hope you find this information useful toward your own reloading and competitive endeavors. Enjoy, and, as always, be safe in all your reloading practices.
jonbearman
I live in new york state,how unfortunate !
What kind of trigger is in your AR-15?
padom
Gold $$ Contributor
I did some extensive load development with 77smk and Hornady 75 BTHP over the summer for my precision AR. My goal was to find an extremely accurate load with velocity between 2650-2700 to shoot to 800yds. I tested IMR4064, Varget, H4895 and 8208XBR. I did OCW testing with each powder and shot everything over the chrono. I ended up going with 23.8g 8208XBR as it was the clear winner over everything else. It shot consistent 0.50" 5 shot groups at 100yds with many of those groups measuring sub 0.50", some sub 0.40" and chrono at 2670fps ES 5/SD 2. It shoots sub 4.75" at 500yds and bangs 12" steel at 800yds no problem. In close second was H4895 with the same excellent accuracy as the 8208 XBR load but velocity was 60-80 fps slower. I would have no problems running this load if I was out of 8208XBR.
My below go to load is interchangeable with the Hornady 75 BTHP bullet, but obviously with different ogive measurement. Accuracy is the same, velocity is a tad higher with the 75BTHP, chronoing consistently at 2730.
I have a ton of Nosler 77cc sitting on the bench that I picked up for testing. A few guys at my last 2 gun match told me they switched from the 77smk to the 77cc because they shoot exactly the same as the 77smk but are much cheaper. I picked up 1000 77cc for $180 vs $260 for 1000 77smk. If I can get the same accuracy and velocity out of the 77cc I will be switching to them as my go to precision AR15 projectile.
Here's my load info and the rifle I did testing with:
23.8g 8208XBR
1xLC brass (fully prepped & Machine Annealed)
Federal 205M primer
77smk
1.8530" Ogive
16" WOA SS Match 1:7
Young Manufacturing National Match Chrome BCG
AeroPrecision Upper/Lower
Syrac Gen II Adjustable gas block
TSD Kompressor
Timney AR Competition 3#
KNS pins
BAD Ambi Safety
Magpul UBR stock
JP Buffer spring
ERGO grip
ADM AD-Recon QD mount
Leupold Mark 4 MR/T 1.5-5x20 CM-R2
Load testing with the above gun was done with an SWFA SS HD 5-20x50
My below go to load is interchangeable with the Hornady 75 BTHP bullet, but obviously with different ogive measurement. Accuracy is the same, velocity is a tad higher with the 75BTHP, chronoing consistently at 2730.
I have a ton of Nosler 77cc sitting on the bench that I picked up for testing. A few guys at my last 2 gun match told me they switched from the 77smk to the 77cc because they shoot exactly the same as the 77smk but are much cheaper. I picked up 1000 77cc for $180 vs $260 for 1000 77smk. If I can get the same accuracy and velocity out of the 77cc I will be switching to them as my go to precision AR15 projectile.
Here's my load info and the rifle I did testing with:
23.8g 8208XBR
1xLC brass (fully prepped & Machine Annealed)
Federal 205M primer
77smk
1.8530" Ogive
16" WOA SS Match 1:7
Young Manufacturing National Match Chrome BCG
AeroPrecision Upper/Lower
Syrac Gen II Adjustable gas block
TSD Kompressor
Timney AR Competition 3#
KNS pins
BAD Ambi Safety
Magpul UBR stock
JP Buffer spring
ERGO grip
ADM AD-Recon QD mount
Leupold Mark 4 MR/T 1.5-5x20 CM-R2
Load testing with the above gun was done with an SWFA SS HD 5-20x50
@T-rex, if its not a hassle i would actually like to see the full report, especially all the data and numbers if its included. thank you for what you posted
@Jonbearman. my trigger is a factory, (i believe) Mil spec S&W M&P 15. which is the lower of the carbine i originally bought. i did polish the trigger and hammer engagement though. I wont claim to be an exceptional shooter, but the same day, in the same session i was shooting 2"+ groups of 62, 69, and 75 grain bullets i was able to shoot a sub MOA group of 52 grain Hornady A-max and about a 1-1/2 inch group of cheap 55 grain.
@padom, thank you for the load recipe. i will make note of it, i dont currently have any 8208 powder but i will keep it in mind next time i go foraging.and very nice rifle you have there.
@Jonbearman. my trigger is a factory, (i believe) Mil spec S&W M&P 15. which is the lower of the carbine i originally bought. i did polish the trigger and hammer engagement though. I wont claim to be an exceptional shooter, but the same day, in the same session i was shooting 2"+ groups of 62, 69, and 75 grain bullets i was able to shoot a sub MOA group of 52 grain Hornady A-max and about a 1-1/2 inch group of cheap 55 grain.
@padom, thank you for the load recipe. i will make note of it, i dont currently have any 8208 powder but i will keep it in mind next time i go foraging.and very nice rifle you have there.
padom
Gold $$ Contributor
dieselmudder said:
I forget to put the charge weight for the above mentioned H4895 load which is:
23.5g H4895
1xLC (fully prepped & Machine Annealed)
205M
77smk
1.8530" Ogive
This load is just as accurate as my 8208XBR load but chronos around 2600fps. Very nice load for 500-600yds and in. I did a full OCW test with Varget/77smk combo and my WOA 1:7 barrel just didn't like it. I'm not too concerned as it leaves more Varget for my .308.
padom said:I did some extensive load development with 77smk and Hornady 75 BTHP over the summer for my precision AR. My goal was to find an extremely accurate load with velocity between 2650-2700 to shoot to 800yds. I tested IMR4064, Varget, H4895 and 8208XBR. I did OCW testing with each powder and shot everything over the chrono. I ended up going with 23.8g 8208XBR as it was the clear winner over everything else. It shot consistent 0.50" 5 shot groups at 100yds with many of those groups measuring sub 0.50", some sub 0.40" and chrono at 2670fps ES 5/SD 2. It shoots sub 4.75" at 500yds and bangs 12" steel at 800yds no problem. In close second was H4895 with the same excellent accuracy as the 8208 XBR load but velocity was 60-80 fps slower. I would have no problems running this load if I was out of 8208XBR.
My below go to load is interchangeable with the Hornady 75 BTHP bullet, but obviously with different ogive measurement. Accuracy is the same, velocity is a tad higher with the 75BTHP, chronoing consistently at 2730.
I have a ton of Nosler 77cc sitting on the bench that I picked up for testing. A few guys at my last 2 gun match told me they switched from the 77smk to the 77cc because they shoot exactly the same as the 77smk but are much cheaper. I picked up 1000 77cc for $180 vs $260 for 1000 77smk. If I can get the same accuracy and velocity out of the 77cc I will be switching to them as my go to precision AR15 projectile.
Here's my load info and the rifle I did testing with:
23.8g 8208XBR
1xLC brass (fully prepped & Machine Annealed)
Federal 205M primer
77smk
1.8530" Ogive
16" WOA SS Match 1:7
Young Manufacturing National Match Chrome BCG
AeroPrecision Upper/Lower
Syrac Gen II Adjustable gas block
TSD Kompressor
Timney AR Competition 3#
KNS pins
BAD Ambi Safety
Magpul UBR stock
JP Buffer spring
ERGO grip
ADM AD-Recon QD mount
Leupold Mark 4 MR/T 1.5-5x20 CM-R2
Load testing with the above gun was done with an SWFA SS HD 5-20x50
regarding your testing with the 4064, what was your load? i tried loading with some from the Lyman manual, and found that you phisically could not seat the bullet to some of the load specs. the powder just would not compress to the COL they published. i cant give the exact load up at the moment, as my load manuals and notebook are not with me.
Me too 
Go for whatever produces accuracy for you AND whatever allows your AR to cycle reliably. As far as reliable cycling, I had best results with H4895, IMR 4064 and Varget. And the loads worked great in my bolt gun too. I'd like to hear some feedback on H322 ans Benchmark.
H335 worked good for me, but it was as clean as a bums nuts . TAC worked really well , but I wanted more vel with heavier pills , for 55 vmax it is awsome ! I think that 8208 is by far the best . It meters great , its clean , great velocity, supper accurate . Mine shot like a dream with wolf 223 primer , it shot like an AK with CCI 450s
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