Actual Accuracy Results from Neck Turning

[NevadaZielmeister]

Gentlemen,

I have been lurking around for awhile and am looking into possibly neck turning. I am changing calibers from a .308 Winchester to a 6.5 Creedmoor in my GA Precision rifle. The use is primarily practical/tactical competitions with ranges from 200 to 1400 meters. I understand the concept of neck turning, especially if I have a tight chamber and whether I am using a mandrel sizer with my Redding Competition Bushing sizing die. I suspect I do not have to neck turn, but want to look into it fully. I did not find a lot of information searching here and on the internet regarding my questions.

My questions are simple:

Can anyone give me ACTUAL quantifiable results downrange from turning neck and not turning necks?

What is the "doing it right" cost to neck turning? (Rough figure)

Any assistance is greatly appreciated everyone. Thank you for your time.

 

[thefitter]

No because all handloading is VOODOO.

 

[BoydAllen]

Just about any turning equipment will work. It is not too hard to learn how to do. Start on range brass, and save mistakes on your good stuff. I would recommend using carbide turning mandrels, and having both a micrometer that reads to .0001 (not a digital caliper... a micrometer) and a neck mic. (not a tubing mic). Don't fool around doing your measurements with calipers. No matter what they are or how expensive they are not designed to be used for work that requires the kind of accuracy that is commonly needed for neck work. This is not to say that decent equipment cannot be had for reasonable prices, it can. Another thing, keep your RPMs low when turning, and make sure that your expander matches your turning mandrel, by buying them from the same manufacturer. Do you know anyone that turns? Assuming that this person has high standards for his work, and is not too ham fisted, a little hands on instruction would probably be beneficial. Shy away from neck turning attachments for case trimmers. PMA Tool, 21st Century, K&M, and Sinclair all are good places to look.

 

[jonbearman]

No because all handloading is VOODOO.

For grins what was your remark supposed to do,were you kidding? Boyd is right on. Talk with pma about the model a I believe. It is one sweet tool. Then get the exact expander from them and you are on your way. Once you get the tools start asking questions as you go. For quatifying results, I had a remmy 700 in .308 and with unturned brass it would shoot about 1 moa. With turned brass it now shoots about .4moa so in my results it was worth it.

 

[bsumoba]

if u turn the brass incorrectly, you can also mess up the brass. there are plenty of shooters with no neck turn setups, myself being one of them and accuracy has not suffered.

IMO, one cannot talk about neck turning unless you talk about your chamber neck clearance. if you have a tight chamber, then neck turning will probably help because the bullet release is that much more critical. If you have say 0.004"+ neck clearance, then turning necks may not help. It certainly won't hurt provided that you do it correctly, but you have to ask yourself if the tools and time to turn the necks will be beneficial.

For a GOOD tool, expect the cost to be about $190 bucks. PMA neck turner, Carbide neck turning mandrel, and a matching expander mandrel. Then there is your time of course.

Shoot for about 0.004+" of neck clearance and about 20-40K of jump, skip the neck turning, use 140gr hybrids and have at it. Most of use are running about near max mag length (2.86-2.87" OAL) and getting about 2800-2850 fps which is plenty of speed. Maybe not enough to stay supersonic out to 1400m, but it will get there. You are shooting in a practical/tactical application. You are not shooting for little bugholes. I have a no neck turn 6.5 creedmoor SAAMI spec chamber in my tactical rifle and I am shooting groups like this...

 

[6BRinNZ]

What brass are you using now? Some brass such as Lapua comes out very consistent and the first question you have to ask is - can I improve on this (assuming that you don't have to trim because of a tight neck chamber).

As a starting point you need a tool to measure neck thickness accurately in order to understand whether or not you have much variation to improve on.

The posts I have read of 1k BR guys is that "neck tuning" is one of the final tweak steps - the inference is that it makes a difference when trying to squeeze the last bit out of an already good group. I think the assumption is that you would need to be already working with consistent brass.

I have found that a bushing size up or down can make a large difference to groups - but small variances in neck thickness .0005" or less are much harder for me to pick up on target. I measure to catch any outliers and thats it.

 

[LRCampos]

,

From my somewhat limited experience, turning the necks usually does not make the load more accurate, per si. But, more consistent, which on the long run, actually it is more accurate.

I usually neck turn all my match brass and I am happy with it. I feel the velocity spread (or SD) is less than no turn brass. On F-Class it means more accuracy and precision. In short range, I don't think it gives me much diference on accuracy.

But when I travel abroad, I usually uses new in box Lapua brass bought locally. I just take it out of the box, neck size and shoot (even on the 6,5-284 for my 284win rifle). And I can not complain of the results, with a couple 600 and 599 points and some firt places in US.

But... from time to time I see a flyer that I keep thinking if it is not because of diferent neck tension...

Anyway, I turn because it makes sense to me on a logical way. And I can see more consistent velocity on the cronograph and on the target (less vertical), specially at mid and long ranges.


LRCampos.

 

[Shynloco]

Nevada,
One of the things I've learned over the years is that consistency is a MUST when it comes to accuracy. And as you can see, some shooters turn (and recommend turning) their brass, while other do not. Invariably, you will not find a consensus per se from rifle to rifle. Even with my rifles, some shoot better with turned brass, while others perform exceedingly well using "No Turn Brass," where they have only been SLIGHTLY turned (cleaned up) to make sure they are even and concentric over the entire neck. But as with many other issues relating to accuracy, YOUR rifle will tell you how well she "LIKEs" the brass/load you prepare. In fact, in a recent conversation I had with the world's record holder in the 30BR (600 yds), he advised that "don't turn your brass unnecessarily." He also said the rifle will be the final arbiter.

As far as the Turning Tool itself, for years I'd been using a Sinclair NT1000 which doesn't have a depth gauge/indicator and frankly has been a pain. Looking at some of more recent and widely used Turning Tools, I suggest you take a look at the Sinclair NT4000, the PMA (which is very popular) and the new 21st Century device made by John Perkins. Two weeks ago I finally broke down and purchased the 21st Century Neck Turning Tool and I REALLY like it, while others will say the PMA is a better turning device. I personally think it boils down to a personal taste thing as all three of the aforementioned brands are excellent quality and will serve you well.

Good luck as you determine which suits your rifle the best.

Alex

 

[South Pender]

Here's a really trivial question for you guys with lots of experience in neck-turning. I have the Sinclair NT1000 tool and am trying to upgrade to the NT4000 (I have a WTB going on this forum as we speak). Anyway, here's the question: I like to turn necks by hand (i.e., not using a power tool to rotate the cases) and I do this by clamping the case in the holder and turning the tool with the cutter as I make my way down the case neck--instead of keeping the cutter stationary and turning the case. Is my technique wrong? Will I get better results by turning the case instead? I've found it a little easier ergonomically to hold the case rigid while I turn the tool. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated; I'm really a beginner with this level of reloading. Thanks.

 

[BoydAllen]

Having done it both ways, powered and by hand, I find no reason to do them by hand, and a lot of reasons to do them with power, turning the case. PMA and 21st Century make dandy power adapter/case holders. Pick one. pair it with a slow turning cordless drill, and join the 21st century. (Sorry about that. I just couldn't help myself ;-)

 

[thefitter]

No because all handloading is VOODOO.

For grins what was your remark supposed to do,were you kidding? Boyd is right on. Talk with pma about the model a I believe. It is one sweet tool. Then get the exact expander from them and you are on your way. Once you get the tools start asking questions as you go. For quatifying results, I had a remmy 700 in .308 and with unturned brass it would shoot about 1 moa. With turned brass it now shoots about .4moa so in my results it was worth it.

"Can anyone give me ACTUAL quantifiable results downrange from turning neck and not turning necks?"

OP asked for "quantifiable" examples of ONE piece of the handloading for accuracy art. Thats why I said no. To try and pull out one step of a sequence of a dozen steps to consistent accurate handloads and quantify that and only that IMO is not possible.

And handloading is VOODOO.

 

[jr600yd]

The question of turning or not turning necks comes up quite often. The real question is why do it? If you have a tight necked chamber of course you must but if a standard chamber? Their are two issues to consider

Accuracy:
The theory here is if the neck is the same diameter all the way around bullet release upon firing is equal all the way around. Most cases will be a little thicker on one side than the other ( banana shaped). Some believe this allows the thin side to release the bullet before the thick side hense the bullet is not concentric with the bore when hitting the rifling. To some extent this is negated by the jamming of VLD bullets.

Case life:
Not all shooters use bushing dies. Using standard dies with an expander ball increases case stretch. The case neck is sized down by the die then the expander ball opens the neck up to a desired size. We've all heard that squeeking noise and really stiff up stroke on the reloading press handle. (Removing 1/2 a thou or so) allows the neck a little more room in the die, reducing case strech. Your brass will last longer.

Will you see better accuracy? At ranges over 500 yds I think you'll see more consistency in your ammo. 1-200 yds I doubt it. I'm sure some of the bench rest guys can give you a lot more information on the accuracy issue. I believe the real reason to turn or "skim" the necks is longer case life.

 

[Patch700]

My questions are simple:

Can anyone give me ACTUAL quantifiable results downrange from turning neck and not turning necks?

What is the "doing it right" cost to neck turning? (Rough figure)

Any assistance is greatly appreciated everyone. Thank you for your time.

My take on the matter is this , if a person recognizes that even some of the best quality brass out there can have neck thickness variances of .001" and he is happy with that tolerance (+-.002") then he would also be comfortable blindly switching between different neck bushings within a string of fire because by his reasoning .001 or .002" difference between cases is nothing to worry about. We know this to be unsound and that neck tension (which is relevant to neck thickness) is an important factor.


Having said that , would you see a huge difference between a turned neck and one that was not in a rifle only capable of shooting minute of angle at best and at point blank range? Maybe not...

Try that with a tuned precision rifle at yardages past 600 and you might not even get on paper. So in an instance like This I would say it's all relative to what you are doing with what you have.

If you are looking to shoot at the distances you mentioned then neck turning would be beneficial in my opinion.

Good luck

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

Thank you so much for all of the responses. This is a lot of information in such a short period.

I agree with the comment regarding the need to even know what your neck thickness is to even see if neck turning is needed. With all of the variables that is hand loading (and it's not voodoo, geesh), I am trying to drill down what step is the most important. In my interaction with a few PRS shooters/friends and others, neck turning is really a small margin, but I could be wrong. One thing I know is that by admitting I do not know everything, I learn everything.

When I mean quantifiable, I mean taking the reloading process and only changing ONE variable. So in my rifle, I noticed that case trimming made a very large difference in the accuracy, about a whole minute of angle just in that step alone. I get that each reloading step cannot exist by itself in a vacuum. I appreciate the discussion regarding it depending on the circumstances. Yes, there are WAY too many variables to drill down to just one, but one can pursue.

As for measuring case wall thickness, is this a good tool?: http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-equipment/measuring-tools/micrometers/sinclair-digital-case-neck-micrometer-prod38161.aspx

Any other helpful suggestions are appreciated.

As for neck thickness, what is the general consensus as to what is acceptable or not? I measured with a Starrett Micrometer the overall neck thickness of my current Hornady match loaded ammunition and I was getting .0005 - .0009 (smallest = 0.2907, largest = 0.2916) out of a sample size of 8 rounds. Does this translate to a possible neck wall variance of .0002 to .0004 (half of the overall difference), given the bullet width as being pretty darn close to .264? I was also having trouble figuring out where to measure the neck width because how far towards the neck or towards the bullet I went, but that is another discussion I guess.

 

[wolley]

My latest 500pcs of Lapua 308 brass ran from .014 to .0155. I skim cut them at .0145. For some it cut 100% of the neck and others it cut ~70% of the neck.
This can't help but help consistency....right?

 

[Brians356]

My questions are simple:

Can anyone give me ACTUAL quantifiable results downrange from turning neck and not turning necks?

Answer to that one is simple as well: No.

 

[dcali]

Even the best brass (Lapua, Norma) will vary in thickness by about 1.5 thous across a box of 100. Some cases may even be a full thou thicker on one side than the other. But most will be less variable than those extremes.

I can tell you one thing for sure - if I were shooting PRS matches where there is a reasonably good chance that I'd lose a good portion of my brass and the targets are all substantially bigger than a 1/2 MOA and your'e shooting off improvised postions, I would not even think about turning necks. It's too much of a pain for too little gain - benchrest territory. I'm not even sure I'd buy good brass for practical matches.

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

Even the best brass (Lapua, Norma) will vary in thickness by about 1.5 thous across a box of 100. Some cases may even be a full thou thicker on one side than the other. But most will be less variable than those extremes.

I can tell you one thing for sure - if I were shooting PRS matches where there is a reasonably good chance that I'd lose a good portion of my brass and the targets are all substantially bigger than a 1/2 MOA and your'e shooting off improvised postions, I would not even think about turning necks. It's too much of a pain for too little gain - benchrest territory. I'm not even sure I'd buy good brass for practical matches.

Very good point. Thank you Damon.

 

[bigedp51]

Adding to what damoncali said about loosing brass.

243 Win Cartridge Guide
http://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/243win/

.243 Win For Tactical Comps
We asked GA Precision’s George Gardner why he chose .243 Winchester for his Tactical Comp Gun. He replied, “Why would I run anything else? Think about it. I’m sending a .585 BC 115 at 3150 fps–that’ll shoot inside the 6XC and .260 Rem with ease. I’m pretty sure I have found the Holy Grail of Comp Rifles. There are no brass issues like you can get forming .260 brass. I don’t have to worry about doughnuts, reaming necks–none of that. And the choice in brass is great too–run Lapua if you want max reloads and great accuracy. Run Winchester if you’re on a budget, and so you won’t cry if you lose some cases in a match.

You also asked about what neck thickness gauge to get and I use this one for sorting cases and finding out what is causing the neck runout.

Below is the Redding neck thickness gauge and with one turn of the wrist you will find out a great deal about your cases.

Example below of a cheaper grade Remington .223 case used with their cheaper military type blasting ammo, meaning M193 clone. As you can see below this cheaper and what I believe to be seconds have .004 neck thickness variation and many of these same Remington cases were much worse and between .007 and .009 variation in neck thickness.

Below the same case rotated 180 degrees.

Bottom line if you use Winchester cases this gauge would be a good tool to have when checking and sorting your cases. And if you use Forster full length resizing dies with the high mounted "supported" expander you will produce ammunition with very little neck runout during sizing.

The best cases I have in .223/5.56 for quality and uniform neck thickness were Lake City being the best, followed by Winchester with .002 or less runout and Remington being the worst. "BUT" be careful many American companies apparently have "grades" of brass and they are not afraid to sell cases that are seconds or lower quality.

 

[jr600yd]

+1
I use the same gauge for sorting all my long range cases.