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Action question

Ok I know there are better action choices BUT I seem to have in the safe a Savage 111 action that I'm looking to do something with and I have a concern so thought I would just ask and get some opinions. I have 2 different chambering I'm considering and while the 300WM doesn't have me worried the 28 Nosler chambering has me wondering if things will be ok is my question. More than likely if I go with the 28 Nosler I'd do a normal barrel and not use a nut so it would give a little more meat around the round but I'd like to get you opinions or thoughts.

What are your thoughts on chambering the 28 Nosler in a Savage 111 action that is a small shank? Later,

Kirk
 
Savage chambers this rifle in small shank with lots of high pressure cartridges. If nothing goes wrong it will be fine. Safety margin to normal pressures is adequate. The 28 Nosler is slightly larger shoulder diameter the than win mag but has the same casing capacity.

If something goes wrong, the savage small shank does not offer nearly the margin of a Remington style action in an overpressure event.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...-you-load-pistol-powder-in-a-rifle-cartridge/

Personally, I'm somewhat conservative and wouldn't do either. But lots of people do. Make a nice 223 with it and get a magnum action for this. Remington magnum actions are for sale here frequently as people move to the short action magnums.



--jerry
 
I don't believe there are many actions if any standard or magnum out there that would stand up to 41 grains of Tight Group.
 
The Savage is fine in a 28 Nosler, if the Remington will work the Savage will, if you do something dumb I'd rather have my face behind the Savage, I've had Remington parts go through my face!
 
Other things that can go wrong include an undetected squip or mud in the barrel of a hunting rifle. --Jerry
 
Savage chambers this rifle in small shank with lots of high pressure cartridges. If nothing goes wrong it will be fine. Safety margin to normal pressures is adequate. The 28 Nosler is slightly larger shoulder diameter the than win mag but has the same casing capacity.

If something goes wrong, the savage small shank does not offer nearly the margin of a Remington style action in an overpressure event.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...-you-load-pistol-powder-in-a-rifle-cartridge/

Personally, I'm somewhat conservative and wouldn't do either. But lots of people do. Make a nice 223 with it and get a magnum action for this. Remington magnum actions are for sale here frequently as people move to the short action magnums.



--jerry

A Remington action? I'm on a budget and don't want to spend the extra time and money to straighten it up ;) honestly I don't think the extra .03" would make a mess of difference with the OD of the action with that kind of powder charge :-O as well as the Savage has a blast ring just in case something stupid happens. Honestly since I started messing with the Savage actions I really don't miss the extra work I'd perform on the Remington actions but I did ask for opinions so thank you sir.
 
When all else is failing !! Find a Pre-64 Winchester !
They do stand up to the job !
Best of Luck with your project.

I've built my share of Mauser actions but pretty much the Winchester but a more refined version but can't argue about the strength of those actions as well as the safety features.
 
Like I said earlier. It's all in safety margin. More steel is more margin. The no
A Remington action? I'm on a budget and don't want to spend the extra time and money to straighten it up ;) honestly I don't think the extra .03" would make a mess of difference with the OD of the action with that kind of powder charge :-O as well as the Savage has a blast ring just in case something stupid happens. Honestly since I started messing with the Savage actions I really don't miss the extra work I'd perform on the Remington actions but I did ask for opinions so thank you sir.

I certainly don't want to argue with you but the PE after my name means "Professional Engineer". That means I charge people to calculate margins of safety for a living. You didn't pay for what I wrote above and you certainly don't need to heed it. But the words were chosen carefully. So far, nobody, including me, has said that it won't work. Make your own call and be safe. --Jerry

 
Didn't know we were arguing? probably don't agree but not an argument by any means. I have built Remingtons and the extra work I've had to do I just don't see is worth the effort. Later,

Kirk
 
For fun Jerry you could calculate how much pressure 41 grains of Tight Group in a 7-08 case with whatever eternal capacity and weight bullet seated to standard oal. Now that would be fun, to see if a Remington could handle the pressure.
 
When all else is failing !! Find a Pre-64 Winchester !
They do stand up to the job !
Best of Luck with your project.
Except when you have a case head failure and it blows out the bottom left side of the bolt face where it's unsupported and throws wood and metal shrapnel into your arm, face, and throat! I will never fire another one!
 
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Except when you have a case head failure and it blows out the bottom left side of the bolt face where it's unsupported and throws wood and metal shrapnel into your arm, face, and throat! I will never fire another one!
Sound more like a Ammo or poor Gun Smith problem ?
 
For fun Jerry you could calculate how much pressure 41 grains of Tight Group in a 7-08 case with whatever eternal capacity and weight bullet seated to standard oal. Now that would be fun, to see if a Remington could handle the pressure.


It's a lot.

I did some calcs for another thead a year or 2 ago comparing various barrel shank diameters using maximum pressures of something like 75,000psi. I didn't do any pressure calculation from loads. It is a specialized branch of engineering and I am not a powder expert. Even the pressure calc isn't easy. If you use basic hoop stress formulas you will predict that all barrels will fail with moderate loads. You have to use Lame's equations for thick cylinders. It isn't trivial but if you're interested google it and I think you'll find some plug-in calculators that do the arithmetic for you. Strength goes up with the outer radius squared.

Like I said, if nothing happens to create an upset condition, they all pass. This is pretty obvious since Savage wouldn't build an unsafe rifle for market and each rifle is proof tested daily by thousands of owners.

But when pressures go up way beyond design, and we know it happens, we've seen the photos, usually caused by a bonehead move, different rifles respond differently. In my experience when this happens to a Remington, the bolt, barrel nose, and action weld themselves together and the not-very-dramatic postmortem photo is an action ruined and cut open with a milling machine to show the resultant mass of fused metal. When this happens to a savage, AR15, or some other rifles, the dramatic picture shows the dozens of parts that were gathered up around the range. I've seen old mausers fracture because they are hardened so much they are brittle.

There just isn't as much metal there to contain the pressure. Additionally, the heat treatment and resultant ultimate tensile strength may not be as great. Like I said, I'm not a gloom and doomer. The primary protection we all use is extreme care not to do such a move to put extreme pressures into our chambers.

But a large capacity case in a smaller diameter shank has less margin for the very unlikely errors that occasionally cause these photos. Above I said I wouldn't do it. I didn't say that the OP shouldn't do it.

Every day we could be safer by staying in bed. So we all choose how much risk we are willing to take. I grew up poor and took lots of risks. Now I take less. If I were richer, I would probably take even less risk. This is America, we all make our own decisions every day. I very seldom criticize anybody who is at least reasonably sober.

Be safe,

Jerry

PS It is hard to impossible to calculate when a component will fail. We have to assume it will fail at some stress. you can look up the ultimate tensile strength of most any material. However, what you are looking up is a specification for the minimum allowable tensile strength. So when you find 410 stainless has a minium ultimate tensile strength for a given heat treat condition of 120KSI, it might actually not fail until 180KSI. And a manufacturer might specify subtle changes or heat treats to raise the ultimate strength. All you can really calculate is a maximum pressure where a component made to the specified material specifications will NOT fail.
 
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Jerry good points! I deal with 4140, 4340 daily with a few others thrown into the mix for fun and going off memory we have always gone with the yield over tensile while granted UT is the place things get real bad but we have found that if we beat the yield enough times the UT is going to become lower and well most of us know what happens when that happens..... hopefully it's just bad words but could become much worse!

Most of our material has had a heat treatment so our UT's are in the 140KSI + range with a HRC of 30-32 and a Y of 110KSI min for the 4140 so while the 28 Nolser pressures run in the 65KSI range one would HOPE that the maker of the action did their homework and got things right which would give us a little room before something bad happens.

In all honesty I don't have any control over what Savage does with their actions as for material comps or heat treat processes since I am not privy to the material certs but one would hope they would keep an eye on things as it could get rather costly for them if they didn't plus that's a fairly common requirement for the 4140 unless your dealing with some sour type services then you'd want that yield down in the 80KSI range. Thing about the yields I feel if you hit that point enough times your going to end up work hardening the material and eventually your UT value will drop as the material is only going to spring back so many times prior to bad things happening.

This is why they use brass as it will fail prior to the action or barrel material and why safety factors have been built into the actions so that if all goes well the gases will be directed away from the shooter. I appreciate your input actually probably more than you think have a good one! Later,

Kirk
 

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