Action bolt lug orientation

[Grimstod]

So what are the prose and cons to having the bolt lugs travel through the action horizontally vs vertically? (I am comparing a two lug bolt)
For example. Rem700 they are horizontal and lock vertically. Seams like the majority of bolt actions are oriented this way.

Mosin (and I actually can't find an example of any other guns like this) they travel vertical and lock horizontal.

Is a vertical traveling bolt action going to be stiffer or the horizontal one like the Rem700?
Does this have something to do with double stack magazines?

 

[jr600yd]

The best I recall it makes know difference. The Russians did it beleiving the action would work smoother when dirty or if snow and ice got in the action.

 

[LHSmith]

A bottom lug would interfere with any cartridges in the magazine and the sear,and require a thicker rear tang for the rear action screw, and the top sear would require more material on the top of the action for scope bases or rear sight tapped holes

 

[Grimstod]

Thanks for the fast reply. Both of you, I think are right.


"and require a thicker rear tang for the rear action screw"

LHSmith that explains why the mosin has a tang that is so thick. Always wondered about that.

Now with most rifle having an open top and bottom do you guys think this make a difference in stiffness?

 

[Robert]

A bottom lug would interfere with any cartridges in the magazine and the sear,and require a thicker rear tang for the rear action screw, and the top sear would require more material on the top of the action for scope bases or rear sight tapped holes

On a 2 lugs repeater front locking action, the receiver counter lugs are better balanced, quite equal in sections top and bottom.

Lugs raceway is also in its natural position when horizontally placed.

If the lugs were closed horizontal, the left one wpuld have a strong support, while the right one would be backed by the small section ahead of the ejection port... This wpuld by far not being an ideal situation, allowing horizontal flex.

An other example of horuzontal closing is the SMLE, but a rear locker.

Nagant, the Belgiam maker of the Rissian was a specialist of strange solutions..Remenber the 7 shots forward moving cylinder revolver......

R.G.C

 

[Grimstod]

Ohh yes I remember the seven shot revolver. Its the only one you can suppress conveniently. Mr. Nagant was very innovative but sometimes left out the practical part. For example the Nagant pistol can't barely stop a small dog let alone a thug cause its rather underpowered 30cal bullet just doesn't have enough case capacity or umph.

Not exactly sure what you mean by "Lugs raceway is also in its natural position when horizontally placed."

By they way reason I am asking all this stuff I cause I am playing with receivers in autoCAD. Thinking about designing one and having it milled out to about 80% then finish it myself.

 

[Robert]

Ohh yes I remember the seven shot revolver. Its the only one you can suppress conveniently. Mr. Nagant was very innovative but sometimes left out the practical part. For example the Nagant pistol can't barely stop a small dog let alone a thug cause its rather underpowered 30cal bullet just doesn't have enough case capacity or umph.

Not exactly sure what you mean by "Lugs raceway is also in its natural position when horizontally placed."

By they way reason I am asking all this stuff I cause I am playing with receivers in autoCAD. Thinking about designing one and having it milled out to about 80% then finish it myself.

Grimstod,
Nagant revolver:
I had one left here on the battlefiels wit a ‘few’ rounds to play shooting it..It was not less poverful than any revolver of its time (French 1892, etc). IMHO, the closure system brought nothing, but the extra-long flpating firing pin makes the indentations erratic all around the primer…..

Bolts lugs:
Placing the lugs horizontally opened is the only rational way to obtain a full length guidance of the bolt by the left lug. Otherwise; a separate guidance is to be added.

Action desgn:
Interesting,congratulation and welcome to the club… My recommendation is to adopt a full diameter bolt with for instance the bolt stop acting as bolt guide to eliminate the costly machining of lugs raceways in the receiver…
R.G.C

 

[DOGCAPPER]

The Nagant does not strip rounds from the mag. The rounds are released from the mag when the bolt is drawn back.

 

[Robert]

The Nagant does not strip rounds from the mag. The rounds are released from the mag when the bolt is drawn back.

Anf this is not what make things easier..

R.G.C

 

[Grimstod]

Ok So here is more of my intent on this post. I would like to design a bolt action that will not double feed like a rem700 will but is still a push feed system that completely captures the bullet in the bolt head.

Dogcapper your close on that one and that is not the exact time that the interrupter in the Nagant allows the next bullet in the mag to come up. Its actually when the bolt is fully closed and the extractor captures the rim that the next bullet advances in the mag of a Mosin. Thus making it double feed proof.

Here is am interactive website that allows you to see how it works.
http://gunanimation.ucoz.com/mov/7.62_Mosin_ru.swf
This you tube will help you navigate it. It is in Rusky after all :-[
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur_7LmkKchc#t=97[/youtube]

What I would love to do is cad up a receiver that combines both the accuracy of a push feed rifle and the reliability of feeding of a control round feed. I think that its posable if I use the interrupter or at lest some of the design elements of it to prevent double feeds. If I do this is it necessary to keep the bolt lug orientation of the Mosin or could it be combined with the horizontal travel of the Rem700.

Pleas don't turn this into a Winchester 70 vs Rem700 argument. I want to combine both positive attributes using what I have learned from the Mosin and also savage. There floating bolt head is a dream come true(more on that later). Here is the CAD drawing I have been setting up so far.