Acceptable "Run out" ?

[Lucky7]

Hey guys, I am looking for some guidance on what an acceptable amount of "run out" should be on my prepared cases, and then on the loaded finished product? I am fairly new to reloading and have been told that concentric loads will improve my group size/precision? I am using the 21st Century gauge and if I am reading the dial indicator properly, the first 10 or so I checked is looking about .0025" - .003" on average if that makes any sense. Hopefully I have the gauge set up correctly so I am not getting bad data?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

What is your intended end use?

 

[CaptainMal]

For you I just checked the neck run-out on some Dashers I loaded this morning. It's about .001 - .0015" on the ones I just checked at the case neck on loaded rounds. All necks have been cut to .012" FYI.

Now this is me and loads I will use in benchrest competition. For hunting and general play, you are fine, in my opinion.

 

[Catfish]

Do not get caught up in everything you read about. If you are happy with the accuracy your getting don`t worry about it. If not then look at it, but there are a lot of different thing that effect accuracy to a greater degree than having .002 run out.

 

[dmoran]

For me runout starts out by telling me how concentric the chamber is. From there, runout is a gauge that tells me how good of a job I'm doing at reloading and how well my equipment and dies are setup and doing. I periodically check runout to keep my methods and equipment/dies maintained, which in the end should reflect on the target as well. To make consistent and accurate ammo, my runout needs to be consistent as well.
Or is how I look at it and utilize it.
Donovan

 

[Lucky7]

What is your intended end use?

F Class FTR LR

 

[Grimstod]

For hunting .005 or less is good.
For compeditive shooting then .001 or less.

 

[Lucky7]

Thank you all for the information. I am shooting F Class FTR and being a fairly new shooter and reloader,I am trying to get every thing out of my rifle/ammo to help gain any advantage possible. I figure if my rifle and ammo are exceptional, than the only one to blame for poor shooting is me. I have just recently noticed my groups have opened up a little and I am trying to figure out what has changed?

Robert

 

[johara1]

For me runout starts out by telling me how concentric the chamber is. From there, runout is a gauge that tells me how good of a job I'm doing at reloading and how well my equipment and dies are setup and doing. I periodically check runout to keep my methods and equipment/dies maintained, which in the end should reflect on the target as well. To make consistent and accurate ammo, my runout needs to be consistent as well.
Or is how I look at it and utilize it.
Donovan

+ 1 on what Donovan said…… jim

 

[XTR]

F Class FTR LR

you are fine.

Once upon a time a gentleman who used to shoot a lot at Oak Ridge, and has a wall full of national records (I think mostly BR, and some F class) told me he could not see .004 on the targets.

If you are new to long range shooting don't sweat it. We tend to obsess about the things that are easiest to measure. I won the state championship in TN before I ever owned a runout gauge.

There are two things you need to get first, good neck tension, more importantly not too much, and consistent seating depth usually at least .010 off of the lands.

My threshold for where you need to start sweating smaller stuff is when your long range scores are breaking 190. At that point you are good enough at reading wind that the points you may lose here and there to a less than perfect bullet matters. If you are shooting in the low to mid 180s your score won't change appreciably with bullets and a rifle that will shoot 1MOA or .1MOA at 1000 yards. That's not to say you don't need a better than out of the boxes load. It should shoot under ½MOA vertical at the range you can test (i.e., 100/200/300), but you can get to that threshold with basic reloading technique.

 

[Alexander-M]

I wonder - -

How much error may be introduced by the method used to measure the runout?
Which method provides the most accurate actual runout reading?

Nando

 

[Grimstod]

you are fine.

Once upon a time a gentleman who used to shoot a lot at Oak Ridge, and has a wall full of national records (I think mostly BR, and some F class) told me he could not see .004 on the targets.

If you are new to long range shooting don't sweat it. We tend to obsess about the things that are easiest to measure. I won the state championship in TN before I ever owned a runout gauge.

There are two things you need to get first, good neck tension, more importantly not too much, and consistent seating depth usually at least .010 off of the lands.

My threshold for where you need to start sweating smaller stuff is when your long range scores are breaking 190. At that point you are good enough at reading wind that the points you may lose here and there to a less than perfect bullet matters. If you are shooting in the low to mid 180s your score won't change appreciably with bullets and a rifle that will shoot 1MOA or .1MOA at 1000 yards. That's not to say you don't need a better than out of the boxes load. It should shoot under ½MOA vertical at the range you can test (i.e., 100/200/300), but you can get to that threshold with basic reloading technique.

Dabid Tubb in his reloading video said that runnout is more detrimental to accuracy then variances in powder in your case.

 

[Grimstod]

My proof.

 

[XTR]

I've also heard it said that if David Tubb said he pissed on his barrel before the match everyone would be carrying their rifles into the porta-johns at Camp Perry.

I believe he says it, but like a lot of things (most in fact) in this game nobody other than Bryan Litz ever seems to back up their claims with statistically valid data.

That said, if you use good dies, how much runout can you really expect to have? Probably ±.002 max, most in the range of ±.0015 with the odd ±.003, that's what I see and I don't turn necks. edit: I'm referring to runout on the bullet bearing surface just behind the ogive, not on the neck.

I know from personal experience that with out turning necks I can get my F-TR rifles to shoot 0.3 to 0.4 MOA vertical at 600 yards with WW brass. I've shot 300 yard matches with my 223 and shot in the range of 66% X count. Oh, and I use Lake City brass, good heavens, it's not Lapua (Last match at the SOA at 300 I think I shot a 150-10X)

Mr Tubb shoots on a 2MOA, 10 ring, and a 1MOA X-Ring, he is a salesman. If you don't clean that target it ain't the rifle.

I'd love to see someone put up statistically valid data on neck turning, flash hole uniforming, runout, Lapua vs WW brass, and weight sorting components to show the improvement in accuracy.

I'm talking about data with a 95% confidence that will pass a Student-T test or a Wilcoxon Rank Sum. That takes more than a couple of 3 shot groups.


I stand by my assertion that for a beginning shooter, it just one more thing that you really don't need to worry about at this point.

 

[billlarson]

I've also heard it said that if David Tubb said he pissed on his barrel before the match everyone would be carrying their rifles into the porta-johns at Camp Perry.

I believe he says it, but like a lot of things (most in fact) in this game nobody other than Bryan Litz ever seems to back up their claims with statistically valid data.

That said, if you use good dies, how much runout can you really expect to have? Probably ±.002 max, most in the range of ±.0015 with the odd ±.003, that's what I see and I don't turn necks. edit: I'm referring to runout on the bullet bearing surface just behind the ogive, not on the neck.

I know from personal experience that with out turning necks I can get my F-TR rifles to shoot 0.3 to 0.4 MOA vertical at 600 yards with WW brass. I've shot 300 yard matches with my 223 and shot in the range of 66% X count. Oh, and I use Lake City brass, good heavens, it's not Lapua (Last match at the SOA at 300 I think I shot a 150-10X)

Mr Tubb shoots on a 2MOA, 10 ring, and a 1MOA X-Ring, he is a salesman. If you don't clean that target it ain't the rifle.

I'd love to see someone put up statistically valid data on neck turning, flash hole uniforming, runout, Lapua vs WW brass, and weight sorting components to show the improvement in accuracy.

I'm talking about data with a 95% confidence that will pass a Student-T test or a Wilcoxon Rank Sum. That takes more than a couple of 3 shot groups.


I stand by my assertion that for a beginning shooter, it just one more thing that you really don't need to worry about at this point.

When you have as many wins as G.D.Tubb..........then you can start running his name down...... until then show some respect for a man that has done what you will NEVER accomplish.....
bill larson

 

[msinc]

Everyone hates a winner especially when he wins at what they are trying to do...everyone hates a rich guy too. Their's to get over, or not.
As I understand it, bullet runout is one of those things that extensive testing has proven don't make a lot of difference you can quantify if it is .003" or less. Over that and depending on how you shoot, you might see a difference. I try for zero just because I have the time and it is not that hard to get it below .003".
I have heard some pretty big benchrest guys say they pay it no mind...the bullet will center in the throat. What I have found is that most of the time it is caused by the resize die and expander ball and not the seating die or type of seater you use.

 

[22BRGUY]

You can get very straight ammunition through a variety of reloading techniques. Of course, as a reloader gets more and more experience, it gets easier to accomplish this in several different methods. If you are just beginning, I would suggest trying a Lee Collet die to size the necks as it seems to always produce very straight ammo even for novices.
Just my opinion and best wishes whatever you do.

 

[DennisH]

you are fine.

Once upon a time a gentleman who used to shoot a lot at Oak Ridge, and has a wall full of national records (I think mostly BR, and some F class) told me he could not see .004 on the targets.

If you are new to long range shooting don't sweat it. We tend to obsess about the things that are easiest to measure. I won the state championship in TN before I ever owned a runout gauge.

There are two things you need to get first, good neck tension, more importantly not too much, and consistent seating depth usually at least .010 off of the lands.

My threshold for where you need to start sweating smaller stuff is when your long range scores are breaking 190. At that point you are good enough at reading wind that the points you may lose here and there to a less than perfect bullet matters. If you are shooting in the low to mid 180s your score won't change appreciably with bullets and a rifle that will shoot 1MOA or .1MOA at 1000 yards. That's not to say you don't need a better than out of the boxes load. It should shoot under ½MOA vertical at the range you can test (i.e., 100/200/300), but you can get to that threshold with basic reloading technique.

XTR: Good neck tension: What do you consider good neck tension?

For the record, I usually get my runout @ .002 or less, sometimes it's hard to get 150 rounds this consistent.

Neck tension, usually .002 unless I am jamming the bullet in the lands. Some of my rifles like the bullet to be .010 in the lands, and some like to be .050 off the lands.

Each barrel has it's own recipe.

Dennis

 

[noload]

I normally do not check bullet runout, if I size my case necks within .001" the bullet will be just fine on the runout. Also I can't see any negitive effects on the target with a .003" bullet runout. If you have more than .002" runout something is wrong some where, be sure to wipe the crud off the important surfaces on the shell holder and(mating surfaces) and bottom of the cases before you size them every time. I doesn't take much dirt to tilt you case in the die.

 

[XTR]

By "good" I mean "consistent" neck tension, the only bullets I jam are two VLDs that I shoot. Most everything I shoot has ~.002 (One of my loads runs between .001 and .002, I'm not going to try to claim it's 0.0015, but it's in that range).

Everything else I shoot I jump, I've found that .010 to .015 works for me. Keep in mind, I don't shoot BR, I shoot F-TR, the X-Ring is ½ MOA. My 308 and 223 loads all shoot about .25 MOA vertical at 300 yards from an F class bipod.

I tested a 223 load today at 300 yards. (can't find 90VLDs so I gotta try something new) With right to left wind my average vertical for three 5-shot groups was 0.203 MOA (0.36", 0.41", and 0.81" vertical, and I think I pulled one in the tall group, the other 4 shots are 0.37"), all three were 1.0 to 1.4 inches wide. This is one of my jammed loads. Neck tension is .002. I didn't check runout.