A little Guy. My First Wildcat. 223 CF

[ggshoots]

I have had an urge for a while to do a short cased wildcat that would shoot low velocity and off a higher node that would possibly reach into the low 3k range with very low powder consumption. I tried to research as much as I could so that I would not be duplicating anything out there but just like anything new cartridges' are mostly a variation off of something already in existence. I found the 22 Spitfire that Johnson did off of the 30 Carbine case, very close but different.

What I wanted was to start off of donor brass that would be very cheap to get and always available. I wanted to run 35-50 gr bullets with main focus on the 40gr and for the base to be seated to the base of the neck. Initially not worrying about seating depth other than that. I am an Ackley fan so I knew what reamer I would be using as a little bit of a tribute to what I feel was a man ahead of his time. I wanted to run in the 11-15gr powder charge area to try to shoot at both these levels so really wasn't to sure about powders. Finally wanted a fairly inexpensive rifle or barreled action to work off of but something that has a fairly good reputation. Oh yes, no custom reamers and dies other than what I build myself as I didn't want long wait times holding the project up. In the end I was hoping everything could be recycled if things didn't work out.

I guess a little more description would be in order. I'm using a Ruger Predator 223. Punched the factory 223 barrel to Ackley and it is an awesome shooter, this is a switch barrel rifle. I rebuilt the stock and went through the action and trigger, it is a much different rifle and cost me $35-40 to do everything if I pay myself about 5 cents an hour. I have never owned a 223 as I am an old school 222, 222mag etc shooter. The case is based on the same reamer ran in short, I could use 221FB, 222, 223 etc. as donor case but now 223 is the one. What my initial thought was, was the 300BO case but when sizing I cant get into fresh brass when reducing the neck. My primary dies are Lee 223AI dies with the FL sizer and the bullet seater both shortened. I played with some reamer blanks on stepping down the 223 brass but ended up settling in on a used 223 FL sizer I cut down and reamed the neck out. I set it to give just a hair long dimension at the start of the shoulder then run it through my Ackley die with the decapping pin end removed and then shortened. I polished the inside sizer so it acts more like a mandrel but does not have any effect on the brass until the outside neck sizing is done and works well, seating pressure seams to be extremely even.

The finished and un-fireformed round looks very close to a fireformed round. Case work and end results are very good. At 100yrds with zero seating depth work and just testing 2 powders mainly for velocity but watching mainly 3 shot groups along the way are getting my a couple of good nodes in the .1"s and .2"s with Hornady 40gr Vamx bullets and H4198 and LilGun. I am running them in a Remington model 37 barrel rimfire barrel with 16"twist at 26" that I had sitting in the bone pile to play with at some point on more rimfire stuff but never got around to it. In my research I had learned that the early Hornets were all mad on RF barrels as they didn't have CF barrels in 224 so I figured what the heck. Cut the tenon off, threaded and chambered to the specs I wanted and it has been awesome. Now I want to shorten it to 22" and I will give it a straight taper. I am afraid the accuracy could leave but I have never had a problem on the others I have done so what the heck, its just a hunting rifle. LOL

The real questions I have are really towards the barrel. I'm wondering if you guys think I will pick up on speed as this barrel should be tighter than a CF barrel and 26" of a tight barrel could be slowing it down or will the pressure it creates counter that? Currently my fast load is 12.2 gr of LilGun getting me about 3025 fps and my low velocity load is H4198 at around 14 gr and getting some pretty good groups out to 160yds which is the farthest my range will go to. My goal was 3000fps and 1 1/2" at 150yds so I'm easily getting that and am very happy with the round and my chamber dimensions.


So far neck reduction and case forming gave me the most trouble simply because I or none of my friends had done this before. Read a lot and experimented, talked with some great people that gave me rock solid advice but I still have a few questions. Not on those items as I am getting formed brass that is not far off from my fireformed brass and with the charges being used there is room in the un-FF'd brass. Main questions are on the barrels as in previous paragraph as well as on next barrel. I believe my next barrel will be a Green Mountain Gunsmither barrel blank, I have had great luck with them and its cheap enough that if it gets screwed up it can go in the junk. I am thinking a 14"twist to keep it in the bullet weight area I have been focused on. Next one may go on a 722 short action as I have a 222 that is lagging just a bit behind my other 222's and would be a good donor. haha, still a great shooter like most triple deuces. The thing is it will pick these short rounds up and feed them without a hiccup. The Ruger I am having to work on modifying AR style mags to use it as a repeater, nothing but a single feed now.

Well as I said I was just wondering what some of you guys with a heck of a lot more experience than me have for thoughts? I am happy with the round as everything has come into the specs I had figured on and verified on GRT, as well as I could get as I am trying to learn the program. If someone has a suggestion on bullets and powder feel free to chime in.

Here are some pics of some of some targets I have shot as well as some of the loads I have prepped for next outing. The rounds on the left are fireformed and right are just formed from 223. Biggest problem has been when using range brass that was military. I have lost a few primers but I think that was more of a loose pocket issue already than it was a high pressure issue as it also happened at lower charge weight. Oh yes, I am neck turning to get a consistent neck tension and eliminate donut, I also anneal before fireforming. Once again I modified the stock figuring it would work until I bought a KRG but I don't think it is going anywhere no, works great.

View attachment 1436802View attachment 1436802

left cartridge die has been Modifed. Was formed but not on modified 223AI die. middle is 223AI and right is a Fireformed Case.
View attachment 1436803View attachment 1436803

I have had multiple groups in this range. Weather has made a nice turn so will get out and shoot 5 and 10 round groups this week.

 

[Ggmac]

Why didn’t you go with the 221 fireball? At least use that as a parent case . The Imp also comes to mind .Sorry if I missed it as your post really doesn’t list your questions.
I still confused about you cutting up a very valuable Remington 37 barrel then compare it to a possible purchase of a green mountain barrel . Apples to oranges . By the way I just sold a Remington 37 barrel that possibly needed a liner , sold it for $400 . Parts ate scarce for them.
Good luck . You obviously like work .

 

[linebaugh]

You have a neat project there.
221 AI picture back when I was working on load development and brass life. 75ELDs. Extremely accurate and is one of my favorite rounds. I shoot PRS with this as I never win anyway, I have more fun than anyone else though and zero recoil. Changing the case changes the eject dramatically and it throws brass forward now. No feed isues and have made impacts to 1300+. Many impacts out to 1000.

 

[ggshoots]

Ggmac, first to form these cases the same work is done so why pay the cost of 221 fireball?
Next, In the pic of the rifle you can barely see and I forgot to mention the model 37 barrel was butchered by someone playing with contour. It has been cut to a straight profile that started about 6" from the original breech and ended that profile. I also love the model 37 and other rimfires so would never have butchered it myself. Original Model 37 parts are hard to find.
Yes I love to play with this stuff, we all have out hobbies.

Linebaugh, I believe that cartridge would be awesome, Give me some velocities and load comparisons if you would. One of my criteria on this project was I did not want a cartridge donor, action or rifle donor that was expensive as well as custom or hard to find dies that are also expensive or long wait times on making. Since I can make or modify dies inexpensively that is not a factor, doesnt get much cheaper than 223 brass and the powder charge running in the 11-14 gr range is definitely cheap, can you say 750 rounds from a 1lb bottle of powder. This cartridge should also allow for thousand of rounds in a barrel's life. It also happens that there seems to be a very accurate low velocity node at around 2500-2650fps that I did not show any pics on. I wanted that as a 150yd squirrel rifle. It has shot under an inch well out to 160yds which is my local range limit. I want to be able to shoot squirrels in the head at 150yds, not saying I can do it in most situations but I want the rifle and cartridge to be capable. Remember that everything I am doing is based on hunting rifle specs with precision always in mind.

Doing this stuff is not for the guy that,
1. sends everything to the gunsmith, shoot a fireball, 222 etc.
2. Does not like small cartridges that they cant buy ammo for. I do not buy ammo, I reload and have for almost 40yrs.
3. a person that has no extra time. They would rather be shooting or hunting and I understand that especially if you have kids..

My body has been damaged by cancer and hard abuse in the military and work so I have to do things it can handle. For a number of years with work and and kids I had to set the guns, reloading etc aside. Now I cant work full time and my not have a lot of years left so do what I want with full blessing and encouragement from my wife and kids. No pity needed, just an explanation of my time.

 

[JSH]

Neat cartridge. AA2200 should work in it.

 

[Ggmac]

I understand and did the same , sort of , my desire was a better 1000 yd cartridge . This was in the 70s to 80s . First was the 460 weatherby case necked down and shortened to 6.5 . The second was a 264 win shortened and again 6.5 . Remember there were no shortages then . Just limited slow burning powders .
Good luck .

 

[Dimner]

I like this cartridge alot. Perfect for shooting bugholes at my clubs 100 yard range.

 

[ggshoots]

Thanks guys, I am really happy with how accurate it is. I use a PTG reamer this time and I cant get over how nice of a chamber it cut. GRT had said they felt recoil on this at close to max pressure was right at 2lbs or less, it sure doesn't move much when fired. Have to get this mag rebuilt to get it to feed correctly.

 

[ggshoots]

Here is a metal silhouette at 160yds when I was fireforming some brass today. Top hits are mine, 3 shots
with 2 on top of each other.
I think I mentioned before the formed brass is very close to Fireformed so I loaded with the same 12.2gr of LILGun. Shoot great. Key is to stay away from military brass. Everything sizes easily and pockets stay tight. I guess that could be the method I use to get rid of military crimp.

 

[ggshoots]

I shortened my barrel 4" and my velocities Increased. I believe the tight barrel was restricting and slowing it down so I am going to go another 2" and profile my barrel as this will be a carry rifle. I had chemo today so I was pretty shakey but it still shot good enough, my main thing was checking velocities. I did not turn the necks on most of this brass it was my earliest brass, spreads are pretty wide so I will go ahead and turn these necks.

I also need to put levels on my scopes as sometimes I get a slight left cant and it pulls that shot to the left as I have circled. First time on target 2 I didn't notice, 2nd time i felt it was canted and shot it which verified. Target 4 I could tell it had slight cant and went ahead and verified just to see where it would hit.

The high shot on target 2 and 3 I just could not get my movement stopped, and went ahead and fired. Hoping another month and I will be done with this crappy chemo but it is what it is. I always say I can watch my bullets hit the dirt instead of looking up at dirt or silk in my new home. Lol

I'm trying to keep a lot better notes on the variables influencing how I shoot and if its the rifle, loads or my body and the effects of my treatments. I know that a good shooter could take this rifle and lay down some pretty impressive groups.

Grabbing a Douglas #2 14" twist barrel blank at Brownells tomorrow For one of my 722's. Hopefully get that done over the next week.
Everything a success so far. GRT is giving me fits but I'm not very good at computer program stuff.



100 yards

 

[butchlambert]

Why didn’t you go with the 221 fireball? At least use that as a parent case . The Imp also comes to mind .Sorry if I missed it as your post really doesn’t list your questions.
I still confused about you cutting up a very valuable Remington 37 barrel then compare it to a possible purchase of a green mountain barrel . Apples to oranges . By the way I just sold a Remington 37 barrel that possibly needed a liner , sold it for $400 . Parts ate scarce for them.
Good luck . You obviously like work .

Wow, I have 2 or three of those. They probably need liners.

 

[ggshoots]

Got my Douglas barrel spun up for my 722 action. Ready to run some 22AIS ammo through it.

 

[Ggmac]

Wow, I have 2 or three of those. They probably need liners.

Most 37 that we removed barrels from either needed liners or just didn’t shoot .
Now , the modified guns are trying to return to the original form .
Sorry OP for the side track .
I love real wood and steel . Great looking combo . Good luck .
PS THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE!

 

[SKWERLZ]

I have had an urge for a while to do a short cased wildcat that would shoot low velocity and off a higher node that would possibly reach into the low 3k range with very low powder consumption. I tried to research as much as I could so that I would not be duplicating anything out there but just like anything new cartridges' are mostly a variation off of something already in existence. I found the 22 Spitfire that Johnson did off of the 30 Carbine case, very close but different.

What I wanted was to start off of donor brass that would be very cheap to get and always available. I wanted to run 35-50 gr bullets with main focus on the 40gr and for the base to be seated to the base of the neck. Initially not worrying about seating depth other than that. I am an Ackley fan so I knew what reamer I would be using as a little bit of a tribute to what I feel was a man ahead of his time. I wanted to run in the 11-15gr powder charge area to try to shoot at both these levels so really wasn't to sure about powders. Finally wanted a fairly inexpensive rifle or barreled action to work off of but something that has a fairly good reputation. Oh yes, no custom reamers and dies other than what I build myself as I didn't want long wait times holding the project up. In the end I was hoping everything could be recycled if things didn't work out.

I guess a little more description would be in order. I'm using a Ruger Predator 223. Punched the factory 223 barrel to Ackley and it is an awesome shooter, this is a switch barrel rifle. I rebuilt the stock and went through the action and trigger, it is a much different rifle and cost me $35-40 to do everything if I pay myself about 5 cents an hour. I have never owned a 223 as I am an old school 222, 222mag etc shooter. The case is based on the same reamer ran in short, I could use 221FB, 222, 223 etc. as donor case but now 223 is the one. What my initial thought was, was the 300BO case but when sizing I cant get into fresh brass when reducing the neck. My primary dies are Lee 223AI dies with the FL sizer and the bullet seater both shortened. I played with some reamer blanks on stepping down the 223 brass but ended up settling in on a used 223 FL sizer I cut down and reamed the neck out. I set it to give just a hair long dimension at the start of the shoulder then run it through my Ackley die with the decapping pin end removed and then shortened. I polished the inside sizer so it acts more like a mandrel but does not have any effect on the brass until the outside neck sizing is done and works well, seating pressure seams to be extremely even.

The finished and un-fireformed round looks very close to a fireformed round. Case work and end results are very good. At 100yrds with zero seating depth work and just testing 2 powders mainly for velocity but watching mainly 3 shot groups along the way are getting my a couple of good nodes in the .1"s and .2"s with Hornady 40gr Vamx bullets and H4198 and LilGun. I am running them in a Remington model 37 barrel rimfire barrel with 16"twist at 26" that I had sitting in the bone pile to play with at some point on more rimfire stuff but never got around to it. In my research I had learned that the early Hornets were all mad on RF barrels as they didn't have CF barrels in 224 so I figured what the heck. Cut the tenon off, threaded and chambered to the specs I wanted and it has been awesome. Now I want to shorten it to 22" and I will give it a straight taper. I am afraid the accuracy could leave but I have never had a problem on the others I have done so what the heck, its just a hunting rifle. LOL

The real questions I have are really towards the barrel. I'm wondering if you guys think I will pick up on speed as this barrel should be tighter than a CF barrel and 26" of a tight barrel could be slowing it down or will the pressure it creates counter that? Currently my fast load is 12.2 gr of LilGun getting me about 3025 fps and my low velocity load is H4198 at around 14 gr and getting some pretty good groups out to 160yds which is the farthest my range will go to. My goal was 3000fps and 1 1/2" at 150yds so I'm easily getting that and am very happy with the round and my chamber dimensions.


So far neck reduction and case forming gave me the most trouble simply because I or none of my friends had done this before. Read a lot and experimented, talked with some great people that gave me rock solid advice but I still have a few questions. Not on those items as I am getting formed brass that is not far off from my fireformed brass and with the charges being used there is room in the un-FF'd brass. Main questions are on the barrels as in previous paragraph as well as on next barrel. I believe my next barrel will be a Green Mountain Gunsmither barrel blank, I have had great luck with them and its cheap enough that if it gets screwed up it can go in the junk. I am thinking a 14"twist to keep it in the bullet weight area I have been focused on. Next one may go on a 722 short action as I have a 222 that is lagging just a bit behind my other 222's and would be a good donor. haha, still a great shooter like most triple deuces. The thing is it will pick these short rounds up and feed them without a hiccup. The Ruger I am having to work on modifying AR style mags to use it as a repeater, nothing but a single feed now.

Well as I said I was just wondering what some of you guys with a heck of a lot more experience than me have for thoughts? I am happy with the round as everything has come into the specs I had figured on and verified on GRT, as well as I could get as I am trying to learn the program. If someone has a suggestion on bullets and powder feel free to chime in.

Here are some pics of some of some targets I have shot as well as some of the loads I have prepped for next outing. The rounds on the left are fireformed and right are just formed from 223. Biggest problem has been when using range brass that was military. I have lost a few primers but I think that was more of a loose pocket issue already than it was a high pressure issue as it also happened at lower charge weight. Oh yes, I am neck turning to get a consistent neck tension and eliminate donut, I also anneal before fireforming. Once again I modified the stock figuring it would work until I bought a KRG but I don't think it is going anywhere no, works great.

View attachment 1436808
View attachment 1436802View attachment 1436802

left cartridge die has been Modifed. Was formed but not on modified 223AI die. middle is 223AI and right is a Fireformed Case.
View attachment 1436803View attachment 1436803

I have had multiple groups in this range. Weather has made a nice turn so will get out and shoot 5 and 10 round groups this week.

That’s a cute lil cartridge!
I like it!

 

[ggshoots]

Update on how things have gone.

The Ruger in this caliber shoots awsome, have most of the magazine built and just need to finish it.

I put together my Rem 722 action and Douglass #2 barrel from Brownells. To be honest the exterior of the barrel reminded me of very course steel wool, I have never seen anything finished on a lathe that rough. The bore looked OK but I ended up running a Tubbs bore finish kit through it to take some time off break in. All in now I am extremely happy with the barrel.


I just dropped this in a 40X stock and put a SS adapter in as I like to shoot this single anyway. I have switched my high velocity rounds to Vihtovouri N110 and am very happy with it. The LilGun shot great but temp seemed to effect it to much.
I'm running 13gr with the Hornady 40gr Vmax. I may very well try a heavier profile barrel as well sometime in this setup but to be honest this one works great. Today in 85deg and sun we shot 50 rounds and this barrel does not get warm until from about the end of the forearm to the muzzle. From the chamber area to about 8 inches in front of it the barrel never gets warm, I guess 13 grains just isn't enough to do it.

I did run this through a seating depth ladder at the 13gr load. I went from very long to very short in .03" increments and ended up finding a very wide window where it stacked 3rds in 1/4" at 100yds. I picked mid way as my seating depth and then verified it dropped right at where the base of the bullet is at the base of the neck, exactly where I wanted to be from the start.

I'm running right at 3040 fps with this powder charge and my goal was to be over 3k. I have run it up over 3200fps with no noticeable pressure issues but I like the way it shoots at the lower velocity. I have also stayed with H4198 for my low velocity squirrel round and run that right at 2500fps. Shoots great and have to really take it out and get my ranges to 200 with that but before at 160yds I was getting 3/4" groups easily. This is all with the 40gr Vmax, just an outstanding bullet in this cartridge and shoots so well in this 14twist and my 16twist Ruger.

So today we went out and shot The 722 with my high velocity rounds. I'm running a Riton 7 Conquer 4-32x56 on this right now and I really like this scope. I had not done a lot of longer range shooting with a good scope to dial so that was kind of a quick learning experience. It sure makes things easy and I walked out to 400yds with this with no misses. 500 was another thing as between 400 and 500 this thing drops a lot. For elevation on my scope we ran 2 mils at 200, 3 mils at 300, 4 mils at 400 and 6 mils at 500. Cant get a lot simpler than that! Had about a 5mph wind from left to right but the field actually had 3 ridges coming into the grassway so it did very on direction and speed.

200yds, 2 groups of 3

300yds not a good group but thats because we were resetting my zero stop on my turrets

I have 400 and 500yd targets but will have to put on another entry as wont load.

 

[ggshoots]

400yds, crazy with 13gr of powder

500yds but I did have a couple misses prior to first hit. Had to come up 2 mils from the 400yd target.

This is 560yds and it is really falling off but it was crazy these rounds were that tight. In the last 75yds there was hardly any wind effect.

In all building this cartridge and these rifles has been a lot of fun. Pretty much every goal I had set out has been met or exceded. Only thing left is to finish my magazine for the Ruger/AR style receiver. As I said I may end up building a heavy barrel for this but no hurry as I believe this will go thousands of rounds.

I guess I did forget to say that I have settled in on using only new brass to get the best results. Range brass has a tendancy to have crappy primer pockets and I have had a number of necks crack. With either RP brass or Lapua brass I have not lost one case and my Lapua brass is on its 10th loading for some of it. I had trimmed my cases to 1.250" and a few cases are now 1.260", may have to trim them in another 4 or 5 loadings. Lol.

At the long distances it was fun to shoot. Fire, see the hit then hear the report. No recoil. Shooting my buddies 308 afterwards sure was a change. Still so managable but comparing the 2 felt like you were getting hit by a truck! haha
left 22Ackley Improved Short, right 308