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A 16" 22-250 & Dual Chronographs

orkan

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I've often pondered the real world performance of a short 22-250. Sadly, this is one configuration that is very difficult to find reliable data on. When doing research, you see people reporting every number under the sun. Most of the "data" isn't data at all, but pure speculation base on other speculation that they read somewhere and are now regurgitating. A sad state of affairs that seems to illustrate one of the core flaws with the internet itself and society as a whole. I spend more time shooting than talking about it, and I spend a lot of time talking about it. As per the norm, it soon became clear to me that if I wanted any real data on this, I was going to need to collect it myself. I sent a factory Remington 700 chambered in 22-250 with a 14 twist 24" sporter barrel over to TS Customs to get cut down so I could do some testing.

Load Data:
Hornady 50gr VMAX
Winchester brass
CCI-200 primer
38.5gr of Varget

The above load averaged 3800fps from the 24" tube, and represents a stout charge of Varget. No massive pressure, but there was a hint of it, letting me know I'd found the limit. I had Travis cut the barrel down to 16" and thread for suppressor, losing 8" of barrel. We then attached a new Magnetospeed chrono to the suppressor, and set my PVM-21 chrono at 10ft. The goal here was two-fold. First, to see just how much velocity we would lose, and second to see how accurate this new Magnetospeed was. My PVM has pretty well proven itself over the years, as I've proofed out countless loads and rifles through it with real world testing at distance validating my numbers. As far as optical chronographs go, I trust it more than I trust any other chronograph. I have had numerous other chronographs tested against the PVM. Some units I've purchased myself, and others that friends and customers had stopped by with to compare. To date, every other chronograph tested from every consumer brand you can imagine has been planted behind the PVM and been found desperately wanting. So much so that I've witnessed the owners of the chronographs in question shoot them upon the conclusion of the testing. Basically, they served better as targets than they did velocity collection devices.

For testing, I used the exact same ammo which was loaded at the time I took the velocity readings on the barrel at factory 24" length. This would ensure as real representation of the velocity lost as possible. I fired 20 rounds across the chrono's simultaneously to ensure the bare minimum of statistical significance to the data.

22-250-testing.jpg


Conditions:
Temp - 44F
Station Pressure - 28.45in/hg
Humidity - 60%

22-250%20velocities.PNG


As expected, the Magnetospeed recorded slightly faster velocities than the PVM-21 with an average reported velocity difference of 14fps. I can attribute this to the PVM being 10ft away from the muzzle, while the Magnetospeed is hanging right on the end of the rifle. The numbers for each individual shot were all very close to that average, with the exception of shot #2. It's very difficult to choose who to believe here. Both readings by the PVM and Magnetospeed for that shot are significantly lower than the rest of the rounds in the string, but there is no clear way to statistically break out which chronograph could be at fault. You'll also notice that shot #2 represents the largest disagreement between both units. With a spread of 45fps, it is nearly twice the spread as the next largest difference.

With both chronographs producing numbers that are this close to each other across a string of 20 shots, it is clear that both are quality units. Though interpretation of the data can raise some interesting questions. For instance, take a look at shots 15 and 16. Here we have an instance of both chronographs agreeing that two separate rounds fired had the exact same velocity, and each of them reported that same velocity on the nose. This brings up an interesting point about the magnetospeed. Had it not been for its display showing the last shot fired at the exact same velocity, one could assume that the shot may not have been recorded at all! This has happened to me countless times over the years when using chronographs that only displayed the velocity of the most recent shot. However when glancing at the Magnetospeed, it was very clear I had indeed fired another shot and it did indeed record it at the exact same velocity. Was this simply a strange statistical anomaly, or are some chronographs more accurate than we think they are?

There are many other questions which are outside the scope of this article, but lets take a second to recognize some additional talking points: Does the Magnetospeed change barrel harmonics and negate the possibility of load development with it attached? Which is easier to setup? Which produces the most accurate velocities? Which is less affected by conditions and environment? Which costs less? Which is easier to transport? The answers to some of these questions are very easy to produce, while others are much harder to quantify.

It's hard to say if the Magnetospeed affects harmonics or not. My time working with rimfires and tuners leads me to believe that it absolutely will. As little as 2 ounces added to a barrels end or moving the tuner in or out 2 thousandths of an inch can cause drastic changes in how they perform. However, I've not specifically tested on/off modes to see whether it does or not on a centerfire. So while logic and experience is telling me one thing, I have no proof. That being said, I will not do load development with the Magnetospeed attached. I will have it on when doing a pressure ladder, to see whether the components selected will even get me in the ball park velocity-wise, and then take it off for the actual OCW.

Ease of setup, use, and transport goes to the Magnetospeed without question. The PVM is decidedly european, and thus needlessly complex with a remote control being required for its operation. Very time consuming to setup properly as well. The Magnetospeed however is very intuitive and easy to attach and use. No fuss what so ever. The ability to handle adverse conditions would also go to the Magnetospeed. If a good wind is kicking, it is very hard to get the PVM to stay still on even the nicest of tripods. The PVM-21 will run you about $1000 by the time you get all the battery packs and chargers required for off-grid operation, while the Magnetospeed V3 can be had for $400. For these reasons, it would be foolish to overlook the Magnetospeed if you are going to buy a chrono.

Now lets take a look at what a short barrel does on a 22-250. When I collected the velocity on the factory barrel, it was done with the PVM, so that is the average velocity we will use. Coming from the 24" barrel we lost 258fps. Dividing that among the 8" of barrel removed, we come to a 32fps per inch of barrel lost on average. I would bet the fps per inch from 24-20 was considerably lower than that from 20" to 16". There it is, the hard data I was looking for! Now, when you take a look around and see people regurgitating that 50fps per inch number, you can realize just how terribly misinformed they really are. I've done similar testing with a 223rem and 308win... and both were closer to 25fps than they were to 50fps per inch.

Remember, the same load from the same exact lot numbers of components were used for each barrel length. I would bet 5 million illegal immigrants that I could squeeze some more FPS and much better ES out of this rifle if I went back and did a fresh load development. Better still, I'm going to get it back to Travis @ TS Customs to re-barrel it with a good Benchmark tube and go from there. This was a fun and illuminating exercise.
 
Nice little writeup. I've also wondered about the effects of hanging a magnetospeed from the end of a barrel.

What I've also wondered about is the current fad to cut barrels add short as possible. You've just turned your 22-250 into essentially a 223 ballistically, only burning 10 grains more powder and with a louder report.
 
asauer,

What load you using to get 50gr VMAX 3550fps out of a 16" 223rem? I personally like a shorter barrel on some of my guns and a short barrel .22caliber build is next on my list.



Thanks,
Jim
 
I'm not, but it's certainly attainable in 223 with a 24" barrel.
Not trying to muck up this thread, but I don't find the short barrels all that worth it for the more over bore cartridges. I'm getting +500fps (compared to a 16" 22-250) out of my 27" barrel swift with a 50gr. It's a fairly light contour barrel, still shoots less than 3/4" and gives up nothing ballistically. It's all in what you want, but it's not like I'm swinging my barrel around in tight quarters while coyote hunting.

Don't get me wrong- my 16" ARs are nice to load into and out of a vehicle, but I'm not willing to lose any velocity with my swift. Kinda defeats the whole purpose of the cartridge.
 
asauer said:
I'm not, but it's certainly attainable in 223 with a 24" barrel. Not trying to muck up this thread,
Then why are you?

asauer said:
Don't get me wrong- my 16" ARs are nice to load into and out of a vehicle, but I'm not willing to lose any velocity with my swift. Kinda defeats the whole purpose of the cartridge.
I have 26" 22-243 and 22-243AI rifles for when I want that kind of velocity. This is a different tool for a different job.
I can push a 308 to 300WM velocities if the barrel is long enough, but so what? One is not the other. Can we agree that some of us have different needs? If not, can we agree that some of us have different wants? Your argument of louder report is negated. I shoot suppressed. I could try to justify my choices to you, and explain things, like how difficult it is to get a 24" barrel with 6-8" of suppressor out the window of a truck... but I just don't feel the need to justify my choices to anyone.

Show me a 16" 223 that can push 50gr bullets to over 3500fps and you'd be adding something to the discussion. Continuing the "why would anyone want a..." is just divisive and needless, yet present in just about every thread on every gun forum on the internet. So please, exercise a little restraint. I don't think that is asking too much, and I would like this thread to stay on point.
 
I missed the part in your first post where you stated you were threading it for a suppressor. I apologize. Didn't realize you'd be so sensitive. It makes sense now.

I've never used a magnetospeed or pvm-21, but it appears they both would be nice over my oehler for low light (or no light for the magneto). Judging by your picture, my oehler wouldn't have a chance at getting readings in that light.
I wonder if there would be any practical way to make a mount for a magnetospeed that doesn't hang off the barrel, yet still produced accurate readings? I'd be sold on them then... Assuming that it does affect accuracy/poi with the current method. Have you noticed any changes yet in that regard?
 
asauer said:
I missed the part in your first post where you stated you were threading it for a suppressor. I apologize. Didn't realize you'd be so sensitive. It makes sense now.

I've never used a magnetospeed or pvm-21, but it appears they both would be nice over my oehler for low light (or no light for the magneto). Judging by your picture, my oehler wouldn't have a chance at getting readings in that light.
I wonder if there would be any practical way to make a mount for a magnetospeed that doesn't hang off the barrel, yet still produced accurate readings? I'd be sold on them then... Assuming that it does affect accuracy/poi with the current method. Have you noticed any changes yet in that regard?
First... I'm not sensitive. Point in fact, people characterize me as decidedly insensitive. I am unforgiving of people constantly advocating what they think is right with no consideration given to what someone else has as a priority. If you think you're the first person stepping into a short barrel thread and then proceeding to advocate longer barrels, you'd be mistaken. ;) Stay on point, and no one will have an issue.

Yes, the oehler units are quite sensitive to light, as are all optical chrono's without an active light source. I believe there are aftermarket IR LED light screens available for the oehler, but I've not used them. I sold my oehler after buying the PVM-21 years ago. The PVM has active IR LED lighting, so it can be used with precise results during any lighting condition. The Magnetospeed has no lights and requires no light to function.

The magnetospeed has demonstrated POI shift when attached. This has been seen by me as well as several others. How much POI shift seems to vary depending upon the rifle. Some report 2" or so, while others report minimal 1/2moa shifts. Still, as mentioned in the article, I am convinced that anything changing the weight or resonance of the rifle can and will affect POI and possibly load development results. I rely on data rather than speculation before giving advice however, and have not recorded actual shot data to that end as of yet. I'll simply say that during load development I am shooting through the PVM, and if I want a quick velocity I will go to the Magneto.
 
Orkan,
Was a suppressor used in gathering both the 24" bbl and 16" bbl data? I've read that suppressors can actually cause a small ( 15 FPS? ) increase in muzzle velocity, of course that could be an internet myth too. ::) Thanks for sharing your results, I've been hesitant to go "too short" on rifle barrels, for fear of suffering a massive velocity loss. Maybe that's an unfounded fear.....
Thanks again, alton9



Edit to add: Never mind my question, I saw the answer on another forum we both frequent. Thanks again for sharing your data.
Alton9
 
Your speeds are right in line with what I thought you'd loose. I shoot specialty pistols with 14-18" barrels. Most of the cartridges loose around 250-300fps over what a rifle will do. In my experience the larger bore diameters don't give up as much as the smaller bores.
 
Interesting- I'll have to check into the IR screens. Like most, I seem to only be able to get around to shooting in the afternoons when I get home from work, and it's useless to attempt chronographing in the winter at those hours.

That's unfortunate about the magnetospeed. That would be a deal breaker for me. I suppose a guy could just use it initially to load a round of each and work up powder charge to check for velocity limits, then remove it and carry on with load tuning, but who wants to waste bbl/case life like that?
 
orkan,

I appreciate your info on your shorty. A short barrel(20"ish) .22 caliber is my next project.

I have contemplated the 22 Creedmoor, 22-243 and the 22-250 but no final decision has been reached. Primary requirements are: 20" barrel(give or take), work in a short action stagger feed savage, shoot 75-90gr Berger Bullets and it will be suppressed with a TBAC 223CB. I am leaning toward a 7twist 20" barrel, designed to shoot 90gr Berger thru a 22-250.

Any information and/or ideas would be appreciated.


Thanks,
Jim
 
rockcreek1 said:
orkan,

I appreciate your info on your shorty. A short barrel(20"ish) .22 caliber is my next project.

I have contemplated the 22 Creedmoor, 22-243 and the 22-250 but no final decision has been reached. Primary requirements are: 20" barrel(give or take), work in a short action stagger feed savage, shoot 75-90gr Berger Bullets and it will be suppressed with a TBAC 223CB. I am leaning toward a 7twist 20" barrel, designed to shoot 90gr Berger thru a 22-250.

Any information and/or ideas would be appreciated.


Thanks,
Jim
I have some data on a 21" 22-243 I can get you if I remember to grab the right log book tomorrow.
 
Good writeup. I love my magnetospeed. You mention about harmonics on .22 rimfires. If the tuners work on .22s, why aren't the centerfire BR guys using them? It would seem that if the lightweight MS affected harmonics, that would be the way to go with all competition rifles. Just wondering.
 
hogpatrol said:
You mention about harmonics on .22 rimfires. If the tuners work on .22s, why aren't the centerfire BR guys using them? It would seem that if the lightweight MS affected harmonics, that would be the way to go with all competition rifles. Just wondering.
In rimfire, you can not control your ammo. You get what you get. So thus, you tune the rifle to the ammo.

In centerfire, you can tune the ammo to the rifle, negating the necessity of a tuner.
 
rockcreek1 said:
That would be awesome.

My email address in jimclifton@centurytel.net



Thank you,
Jim
Well the databook page is eluding me right now... but I'll keep lookin. The gist of it was 75gr Amax at 3300-3400fps, and 52SMK at 3600-3700fps.
 
I found it!

Disclaimer - These aren't start loads nor developed loads... but rather just some velocities I was gathering while experimenting with different powders in the cartridge.

21" 22-243win (not AI)

75 Amax
40gr H4350 - 3050fps
45gr Retumbo - 2973fps
45.5gr H4831SC - 3081fps
45.5gr H1000 - 3006fps
40gr Varget - 3372fps
40gr H4895 - 3526fps *** This was WAY hot. Don't do it.
37gr H4895 - 3371fps

52SMK
42gr Varget - 3750fps
42.7 H4895 - 4125

40 Nosler
40.5gr H4895 - 3787fps
 
hogpatrol said:
Good writeup. I love my magnetospeed. You mention about harmonics on .22 rimfires. If the tuners work on .22s, why aren't the centerfire BR guys using them? It would seem that if the lightweight MS affected harmonics, that would be the way to go with all competition rifles. Just wondering.

They are using them more and more.
 

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