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8mm Mauser pet loads

So developing a load for my 1940 Sauer made 98k. Using 200gr SMKs and 4064 lapua brass. Getting conflicting information from the loading manuals Sierra says 42.7 max, hornady says 47.0 max and Nosler states 46.0. Hodgdon states 44.5. All state the close to same velocity.

So what is your opinion on close to military loading. Thing I find strange is this rifle shoots low which is contrary to most peoples expireces. Any input would be great. The most accurate load so far is 42.6.
 
Your target is about 2490 fps to match WWII velocity. I have been loading my K98 Mauser for Vintage Sniper competition with 200 gr. SMKs, Winchester brass, Wolf LR primers and am using 50 gr. of H4350 for 2500fps with excellent accuracy. With that powder one can load up to 52 gr. with a velocity of nearly 2700fps in a K98 but no need for 600 yd. target loads.
 
Watercam I am skeptical, or in awe of your data. 2490 fps with a 200g is HOT. But 2700 fps is almost 300 Win Magnum cartridge territory if we are talking about a 23.75 inch barrel. Have you shot a 200g at a real 2700 fps ? With H4350 ?? I am using R-17 which is very close to H4350. 51.1g with 200g Nosler Partition gives me 2510 fps 10 feet from the muzzle. Just starting to flatten soft 210m Fed primers in a Tikka T3 with a 22-inch barrel. Case is pretty much full to the shoulder. I have shot the SMK at 2500 fps through a M24/47 but haven't used it in a couple of years so I can focus on the hunting rifle.

Edit: the part I am ?? is getting an additional 200 fps from 2.0g of powder. 2700 fps, I don't think that is doable. If it is, I have to, I gots ta know !!! - thanks
 
Your target is about 2490 fps to match WWII velocity. I have been loading my K98 Mauser for Vintage Sniper competition with 200 gr. SMKs, Winchester brass, Wolf LR primers and am using 50 gr. of H4350 for 2500fps with excellent accuracy. With that powder one can load up to 52 gr. with a velocity of nearly 2700fps in a K98 but no need for 600 yd. target loads.

I am a 4064 junky I love that powder, I try to keep my components to a minimum. Unless givin to me or if they are on sale. But usually it’s 4064 for any 30-06/308 family (including 22-250) 4198 for .223 and power pistol for my handguns. I may have to try 4350. What troubles me is the discrepancy between load manuals in regards to 4064 charge weights.

I have some Yugoslavian surplus that I have pulled bullets on and loaded into primed PPU cases (crimped with a LFC) So I don’t have to clean corrosive primer residue out of my rifle. The powder was a weird square flake powder. The bullet was a fmjbt 198gr. I intend on using this as a baseline for velocity. I also have a box of hornady vintage match. Which will be used as a commercial baseline. I just have to cure this shooting low nonsense. I don’t want to shoot my chronograph.

IIRC correctly it shot like shite (the hornady)and was out shot by S&B 196gr. Although this was before I bedded the rifle. I really hope this won’t turn into a exercise in futility. Love this rifle it was a birthday gift from the wife.
 
Not sure what to say. My results were measured over an Oehler 35P and derived from the components I used and a 23.7" barrel. The data from Hodgdon showed about 2500 fps from 52 gr. of H4350 with the primers and brass they used. My results were different from theirs for what ever reason. When in doubt I always stop adding powder when maximum velocity is reached. The Nosler book showed just under 2700 fps from 54 gr. of H4350 as a max load. I am, in theory, well under maximum.
2500 fps with 200 gr. match bullets is a normal 8mm Mauser load from WWII.
No idea what powder they were using in Germany at the time.
 
What kind of pet? I think the 8 Mauser is overkill for cats but appropriate for larger species of dog and the occasional Alpaca. I would use your regular deer load for all nuisance pets.;)


Sorry, I could not resist this morning:).
 
DF449E01-6E97-4A97-A250-3BB3A56CADE8.png
Watercam I am skeptical, or in awe of your data. 2490 fps with a 200g is HOT. But 2700 fps is almost 300 Win Magnum cartridge territory if we are talking about a 23.75 inch barrel. Have you shot a 200g at a real 2700 fps ? With H4350 ?? I am using R-17 which is very close to H4350. 51.1g with 200g Nosler Partition gives me 2510 fps 10 feet from the muzzle. Just starting to flatten soft 210m Fed primers in a Tikka T3 with a 22-inch barrel. Case is pretty much full to the shoulder. I have shot the SMK at 2500 fps through a M24/47 but haven't used it in a couple of years so I can focus on the hunting rifle.

Edit: the part I am ?? is getting an additional 200 fps from 2.0g of powder. 2700 fps, I don't think that is doable. If it is, I have to, I gots ta know !!! - thanks

Picked up some 4350 gonna giver a try. Looked at noslers data and it coincides with watercams data. I am also thinking of giving 44gr up to max 46gr if 4064 a shot. Like said I love 4064 it’s dirtier than all hell but in my expirence always delivers accracy.
 
Nosler seems fantasy to me. we are all friends here but I call &^%$ Speer 200g cuts off at 2469 MAX. Sierra, my trusted source for things technical, acheives 2600 fps, with a 175g. Hornady Superformnce international tops out at 2400 fps (edit 2500fps). Their USA spec 195 Interlock shot 2390 over my chrono. Lapua, number Two for me, lists 2677 fps for a 180g. The Nosler seems fantasy but hey, if I can get 200 fps just by reading this forum I am all for it. Since watercam's data actually reflects mine, I'll stay skeptical or incredulous at the Nosler's data. Until someone shows me I will remain blissfully deprived !! I accept that war spec ammo was hot and that is consistent with 2475-2500 fps.

Speer lists 2434 fps for 46.0 IMR 4064 MAX load. Nosler, DING !! Gets an xtra 200 fps for exact same load (not the exact same weapon but both Mauser Milsurp with 600mm barrels). I ain't buyin it. I have been wrong once in my life, anyone with a chrono and 200g 323 bullets flingin at 2700 fps from a 8x57 brass and a Mauser 23.-7 inch barrel please share.
 
Nosler seems fantasy to me. we are all friends here but I call &^%$ Speer 200g cuts off at 2469 MAX. Sierra, my trusted source for things technical, acheives 2600 fps, with a 175g. Hornady Superformnce international tops out at 2400 fps (edit 2500fps). Their USA spec 195 Interlock shot 2390 over my chrono. Lapua, number Two for me, lists 2677 fps for a 180g. The Nosler seems fantasy but hey, if I can get 200 fps just by reading this forum I am all for it. Since watercam's data actually reflects mine, I'll stay skeptical or incredulous at the Nosler's data. Until someone shows me I will remain blissfully deprived !! I accept that war spec ammo was hot and that is consistent with 2475-2500 fps.

Speer lists 2434 fps for 46.0 IMR 4064 MAX load. Nosler, DING !! Gets an xtra 200 fps for exact same load (not the exact same weapon but both Mauser Milsurp with 600mm barrels). I ain't buyin it. I have been wrong once in my life, anyone with a chrono and 200g 323 bullets flingin at 2700 fps from a 8x57 brass and a Mauser 23.-7 inch barrel please share.

I would tend to agree, I find most load data off by quite a bit both ways. Hornady is always well below other published data. Nosler always seems rather high. I do note that Nosler posts the use of a Lilja barrel 24”. Not that .25 of an inch will add noticeable velocity.

I have yet to have a nice day to chronograph the Yugoslav milsurp. It’s snowed 7mths up here now(global warming my ass). I did however fix the problem of shooting low. So hopefully soon I will have some proper data. I also picked up a pound of 4350 so I fully intend on doing Noslers loads and chronographing them.
 
I am trying to get my head around this . . .. always dangerous for me..... My data is from a 22-inch barrel and my chrono is at least 10 feet away. That combined might be worth 100 fps ???? I re-checked the published Vhita data and they show 2575 fps for a 200g Partition so . . . . . . But I am still skeptical of the Nosler data as I pointed out the identical IMR 4064 powder load, different but similar 200g Speer bullet is 200 fps slower than the Nosler Partition. There is always some variation in loads and weapons but the Nosler data in that case . . no.
 
2” barrel length is more like 24ish FPS. Perhaps the elevation of where Nosler does its testing? 3652 feet above sea level. Sierra is 908ft above sea level. Where I am it’s 532 above. I am sure there is a way to compare and extrapolate the data. I am probably way way off on this. But just a thought haven’t got Brain Litz books yet.

Altitude and Air Pressure. ... “In basic terms, as your altitude increases, the density of the air the bullet must travel through decreases, thereby reducing the drag on the bullet. Generally, the higher the altitude, the less the bullet will drop.”

 
The altitude would have more effect downrange rather than at the muzzle I would think. But my elevation is 70 feet and it's wet coastal air. Worth a few less fps but we're still short a little V. I would guess an inch of rifle barrel is more like 30-40 fps per inch . . .. There are people here that know ;)
 
It is probably due to the pressure standard each loading data supplier uses. SAAMI (USA) has a much lower allowable pressure than CIP European. Maybe Nosler used the CIP standard.
 
QuickLOAD calculates ~2,500 fps from 52gn IMR or H4350 in a 23.75" barrel, and that's pretty well what I'f expect. That is expected to run at 49,000 psi or thereabouts. The 7.92X57mm IsS is a powerful number and CIP maximum is 56,565 psi, so in theory 2,700 fps with a 200 might just be 'on' using a very high energy powder, to wit Alliant Re17.

The WW2 sS (Schwerer Schpitzgeschoss or heavy pointed bullet) loading was developed as a machinegun round and was found to produce excessive pressures in the G98 rifle and its inter-war successor, the KAR98b (which despite the use of the KAR = Karabiner = carbine designatgion was a long rifle with 29.13" barrel, in fact a slightly modified development of the WW1 Gewehr '98). As a result, rifle chamber throats were redesigned to reduce pressures.

As adopted, the sS round nominally gave a 198gn Tombak-plated steel jacket and core FMJBT bullet 2,575 fps MV at 46,926 psi average chamber pressure, but note that MV was from a 29.13" KAR98b barrel, so the the nearly six inches shorter KAR98k barrel will produce a fair bit less.

Powders have moved on a great deal from the 1930/40s, so 2,500 fps in a K98k is in line with historic performance. Whilst I'll happily accept you got that with your rifle and 50gn Watercam, I don't see an extra 2gn taking it to the maximum listed load producing an extra 200 fps or 100 fps / gn powder. QuickLOAD says 50 fps / gn for H4350 which seems about right for the powder and bullet combination.

Going back to my days with 7.92X57 many, many years back in a Portuguese M1904 'Mauser-Vergueiro' in very good condition and an absolutely mint 1944 Brno KAR98k that looked like it had never been shot, I must say I'm full of admiration for you guys. 2,500 from the 200gn SMK - that's a punishing combination in these rifles. One aim of getting the 1904 Portuguese rifle (strictly speaking, these cut-down and rebored 6.5s were designated m/904-39) was to use cheap Yugoslav ammo (headstamp looks like nny, but that's Cyrillic for ppu - it's old Prvi Partizan military spec) that was available in the UK for around £12 / 100 at the time. That plan lasted one range session and maybe 20 rounds and I went out and bought a set of dies. Attempt 1 was to download the ppu stuff - square flakes like you found Canuckstein - but anything more than a 5% reduction performed very badly and dirtily, so it was onto a mild load with a light (125gn ?) Hornady flat-base SP bullet and that was very nice for short-range and accurate enough too. I had a lot of pleasure from the 1904, not nearly as much from the K98k for some reason which soon went.

Incidentally, QuickLOAD says 47gn IMR-4064 with the 200 SMK at 3.17" COAL (military 198 sS standard) gives 97.1% fill-ratio, 52,300 psi PMax for 2,536 fps in a 23.75" barrel. That's using the program's default case water capacity which I've no idea how accurate that would be against what you're all using.
 
QuickLOAD calculates ~2,500 fps from 52gn IMR or H4350 in a 23.75" barrel, and that's pretty well what I'f expect. That is expected to run at 49,000 psi or thereabouts. The 7.92X57mm IsS is a powerful number and CIP maximum is 56,565 psi, so in theory 2,700 fps with a 200 might just be 'on' using a very high energy powder, to wit Alliant Re17.

The WW2 sS (Schwerer Schpitzgeschoss or heavy pointed bullet) loading was developed as a machinegun round and was found to produce excessive pressures in the G98 rifle and its inter-war successor, the KAR98b (which despite the use of the KAR = Karabiner = carbine designatgion was a long rifle with 29.13" barrel, in fact a slightly modified development of the WW1 Gewehr '98). As a result, rifle chamber throats were redesigned to reduce pressures.

As adopted, the sS round nominally gave a 198gn Tombak-plated steel jacket and core FMJBT bullet 2,575 fps MV at 46,926 psi average chamber pressure, but note that MV was from a 29.13" KAR98b barrel, so the the nearly six inches shorter KAR98k barrel will produce a fair bit less.

Powders have moved on a great deal from the 1930/40s, so 2,500 fps in a K98k is in line with historic performance. Whilst I'll happily accept you got that with your rifle and 50gn Watercam, I don't see an extra 2gn taking it to the maximum listed load producing an extra 200 fps or 100 fps / gn powder. QuickLOAD says 50 fps / gn for H4350 which seems about right for the powder and bullet combination.

Going back to my days with 7.92X57 many, many years back in a Portuguese M1904 'Mauser-Vergueiro' in very good condition and an absolutely mint 1944 Brno KAR98k that looked like it had never been shot, I must say I'm full of admiration for you guys. 2,500 from the 200gn SMK - that's a punishing combination in these rifles. One aim of getting the 1904 Portuguese rifle (strictly speaking, these cut-down and rebored 6.5s were designated m/904-39) was to use cheap Yugoslav ammo (headstamp looks like nny, but that's Cyrillic for ppu - it's old Prvi Partizan military spec) that was available in the UK for around £12 / 100 at the time. That plan lasted one range session and maybe 20 rounds and I went out and bought a set of dies. Attempt 1 was to download the ppu stuff - square flakes like you found Canuckstein - but anything more than a 5% reduction performed very badly and dirtily, so it was onto a mild load with a light (125gn ?) Hornady flat-base SP bullet and that was very nice for short-range and accurate enough too. I had a lot of pleasure from the 1904, not nearly as much from the K98k for some reason which soon went.

Incidentally, QuickLOAD says 47gn IMR-4064 with the 200 SMK at 3.17" COAL (military 198 sS standard) gives 97.1% fill-ratio, 52,300 psi PMax for 2,536 fps in a 23.75" barrel. That's using the program's default case water capacity which I've no idea how accurate that would be against what you're all using.

That’s really cool info Laurie thank you. It solves many mystery’s I have. I was looking at reloading software. I only load for a few calibres at the moment.

Next will be .303 Brit. I have 2 enfields (lithgows) I am restoring from sporterization :( and a Type 99 Arisaka. The bores are pristine after slugging the I know why they were sporterized. To many projects not enough time or money. Next will be a LR rifle built on a ARC receiver. Now that I have finished my MK-12. But thats other topics for another time.
 
So I finally got to chronograph the loads and some factory stuff. Here are some screen shots of the data above. The top one is 46.0 grains of 4064 two primers just starting to flatten out. No where near 2700fps. 44.5 was my best SD. Sellier and Bellot was second best. The hornady was horrible it was no match for even the S&B. Sufficed to say I am using S&B as my baseline.

Could any quick load guys tell me the difference between 200gr SM and a 196gr FMJ in FPS?
 
looking for 8mm Mauser loading data: Cannot find any on the Web.
180 GMX Hornady
125 grain, KURZ
going to the range tomorrow ,,, some decent weather.. thank you in advance: Junnie

This is all Hornady bullets..... danke.
 
Flouncer: Please note that humid air is less dense than dry air at the same temperature and pressure. Water vapor is less dense than either nitrogen or oxygen. Its not a large change but we had to account for the difference when running a engine on a dynamometer. Most think that higher RH = higher density but the opposite is in fact true.
 

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