8208 with 200.20x

[APGE]

Howdy Folks,

I haven't been able to get the results I'm chasing with 4895 and 200.20x for ftr, so I will try another powder. I've shot a number of 198-198, but I feel this rifle has more potential (Panda action/brux barrel)

I have a good supply of 8208XBR and it has me thinking that if I was happy to forego 50-70 fps, would 8208XBR give me the consistency and low ES that it gives in my palma rifle?

Has anyone tried 8208 with 200gr projectiles?

Varget is the obvious alternative, however I'm curious about 8208 as it has delivered such excellent results in other cartridges.

Thank you

 

[memilanuk]

I haven't played with 8208 much in years. I've got a couple pounds set aside for some .223 stuff, and I seem to recall trying it with favorable results with B185 Juggernauts... but I don't know that I've heard of anyone trying it with 200s. Given the burn rate is supposed to be close-ish to H4895, it seems like it *should* work... I know I'd certainly be interested in hearing how the testing goes!

If 8208 doesn't work out for you, give Viht N140 a try

 

[Ned Ludd]

I have only tested 8208 side-by-side with Varget and H4895 in a .223 Rem with 90s, which is an apples to oranges comparison. I have also worked up 0.308 Win loads with the 200.20X bullet over both H4895 and Varget. In my hands, Varget was the better powder, but not for the reason you might think. Overall, I'd say absolute precision was very close to the same with both. However, the recoil impulse with H4895 was noticeably different from Varget. I would describe the difference as a sharp "crack" as opposed to a more gently "push". Clearly, there are shooters that have had success with H4895 and the 200.20Xs, but I personally think H4895 is a bit too fast for that weight bullet and don't care for the combination.

What I really didn't care for was the recoil impulse with H4895 and 200.20X bullet over the long strings of fire we shoot in F-TR. It wasn't an issue of discomfort in any way; rather, it was an issue of being a distraction and having to work harder to maintain consistent gun handling. Once I switched to Varget, the 200.20Xs became a real pleasure to shoot. You might consider giving Varget a try. There is a very good node with Varget in a 30" barreled rifle chambered with 0.170" to 0.180" freebore at around 2640 to 2650 fps in Lapua Palma brass, with the 200.20X seated from about .009" to .012" off the lands.

I personally think you might have a similar problem to what I experienced with H4895 if you switched to 8208. It's a great powder with lighter bullets in the .308 Win, but I think it's a bit too fast for the 200s.

 

[D-4297]

+ 2 , On what Ned Ludd said . Been there , Done that ...Same results , too . Just got finished yesterday with a 200 Hybrid & 200.20x ladder tests using H-4895 . Got one bottle of Varget left that I'll use for my SWN 200 loads . Then it's wait for Varget and 4064 . And shoot 185's with 4895 . Or try out N-140 .

 

[ShootDots]

I have never shot F-T/R, however, I have used a few .308s. Heavier bullets can work with faster powders, just at a slower velocity. If you want to maintain a good velocity and use a GREAT powder, give VV N150 a shot. It is just a tiny bit slower than Varget. As a matter of fact it is about like a slow lot of Varget. It produces excellent accuracy and velocity>>>>very worthy of a try..

 

[LVLAaron]

I personally would not want to use 8208 in my FTR loads. 8208 is a magical powder but it gets out of hand really quickly. If you're doing load dev you can go from zero pressure signs at all, to a completely blown out primer with .2 more grains of powder.

As others have said... N140 is a great choice here.

 

[Jdne5b]

N150 is a good option also if you dont mind using a drop tube and have an appropriate length freebore.

 

[ShootDots]

N150 is a good option also if you dont mind using a drop tube and have an appropriate length freebore.

You are absolutely correct! A 6" drop tube and a 175+ freebore will make the .308 sing a nice song!

 

[benchracer]

Howdy Folks,

I haven't been able to get the results I'm chasing with 4895 and 200.20x for ftr, so I will try another powder. I've shot a number of 198-198, but I feel this rifle has more potential (Panda action/brux barrel)

I have a good supply of 8208XBR and it has me thinking that if I was happy to forego 50-70 fps, would 8208XBR give me the consistency and low ES that it gives in my palma rifle?

Has anyone tried 8208 with 200gr projectiles?

Varget is the obvious alternative, however I'm curious about 8208 as it has delivered such excellent results in other cartridges.

Thank you

8208 is one of my favorite powders for F-T/R. I have had excellent results with it and 75 AMAX/ELD-M in .223 at mid-range matches. I have had equally excellent results with 8208 and Sierra Palma 155's in .308 (also at mid-range). For heavy bullets, though, 8208 is just too fast burning. It's possible that you may achieve a high level of accuracy, but you will be leaving an awful lot on the table relative to other powders. If you just want to use it because that is what you have, I don't see any harm in doing so, but it is not an ideal choice.

Aside from Varget, you may wish to consider AR-COMP, RL16, or H100V.

My .308 F-T/R rifle is a factory Remington 700 VS, with a 12 twist 26" barrel (yes, not ideal for F-Class competition). I have been working with 185 Juggernauts and H100V for use in long range matches. Though I have yet to shoot this combination in competition, it is showing promise in testing, yielding low vertical dispersion and good velocity. I also intend to test RL16 with the 185's. I am expecting similar performance to H100V, with a bit better temp stability. AR-COMP is slower than Varget (so it should offer a velocity advantage with heavy bullets), temp stable, and has produced stellar accuracy in load work I have done with .223 and 6.5 Grendel. Being faster burning than both H100V and RL16, I would not expect it to offer an advantage relative to those two powders, but I believe it would work well as an alternative to Varget with heavy bullets. I have worked with AR-COMP and the 155's in .308, but I liked 8208 better for that bullet weight. I haven't tried it with heavier bullets.

 

[Barossa_222]

I use varget/AR2208 in my FTR set up with both 200gr Hybrids and 200.20x pills. 8208 for me, while very temperature stable, is nearly always 8-10000 psi higher in any given load when looking at the companies reloading data. The loads are also 2-3 grains lighter. I prefer having more case density. I have spoken to people who use it with 155gr bullets with good results. Not the place I'd start with a 308 and 200gr+ pills IMHO.

I have included the link for ADI/Thales who make the powder.

http://www.adi-powders.com.au/rifle/308-winchester

 

[APGE]

I use varget/AR2208 in my FTR set up with both 200gr Hybrids and 200.20x pills. 8208 for me, while very temperature stable, is nearly always 8-10000 psi higher in any given load when looking at the companies reloading data. The loads are also 2-3 grains lighter. I prefer having more case density. I have spoken to people who use it with 155gr bullets with good results. Not the place I'd start with a 308 and 200gr+ pills IMHO.

I have included the link for ADI/Thales who make the powder.

http://www.adi-powders.com.au/rifle/308-winchester

It was interesting looking at that ADI data. For a 208gr Amax, 2206H (which is H4895?) delivered pretty much the exact same velocity at 8208 at the listed maximum. 2208 (Varget?) is a little faster than both

That's not the results I would have expected, but those guys make the powder, right?

I tried to compare their data for 200gr projectiles, but half of it is in CUP and the other half is PSI.

 

[Barossa_222]

2206H is the equivalent to H4895. 2208 (varget) is slower than both H4895 and 8208.

2208 is the powder of choice over here for 308's and 223's running heavy pills for F class only due to the lack of other options. H4895 (2206H) gets a bit of play, but usually only with 155gr pills.

I use the ADI figures as a guide and usually start near max for F class shooting in custom rifles. I generally try and pick the fastest load for the most powder at the lowest pressure.

 

[APGE]

Thanks y'all for all the replies.

Curiosity got the better of me and I loaded up 40.8 - 42.6gr of 8208 under 200.20x in 0.3gr increments. Quickload predicted I would get the same barrel time as my H4895 load at 42.3gr (albeit 35fps slower). I know that the 200gr ftr loads aren't on an obt node, but I figured that would be a good starting point. I didn't chronograph them but the hottest load I shot printed at about the same height as my H4895 load. There were no real signs of pressure at 42.6gr.

Shot at 200 yards, the grouping was quite good. Of the seven groups I shot, three were less that 0.5". The worst group in the 1.8gr spread was still under an inch. These were only three shot groups, but still gave an indication of the potential.

@Ned Ludd you were spot on about recoil being sharp. Today I was shooting on a bench from a rest. Tomorrow I will lie down with a bipod and see if it's any better. Sharp crack or not, the results were enough to convince me to continue experimenting, especially given how clean the barrel was following the shooting!

I'll shoot a local match shortly and report back. Hopefully someone there will have a labradar so I can get an idea how much velocity I am leaving in the table.

I'm not expecting anything ground breaking with 8208, but perhaps it is a legitimate option all the same.

 

[Ned Ludd]

...@Ned Ludd you were spot on about recoil being sharp. Today I was shooting on a bench from a rest. Tomorrow I will lie down with a bipod and see if it's any better. Sharp crack or not, the results were enough to convince me to continue experimenting, especially given how clean the barrel was following the shooting!...

FWIW - I may not personally care for the recoil impulse with the 200-20X over H4895, but I know a few people that have done quite well with that very combination. I'd imagine the recoil with 8208 might not be all that different than with H4895. So it's really up to the individual to decide what works for them and what doesn't.

IMO - the greater potential concern with 8208 is how high will the pressure be when shooting 200.20Xs loaded over it to reasonable velocity (i.e. ~2600 to 2650 fps from a 30" barrel). As long as the precision of the load is good and the pressure isn't ridiculously high, that combination could work just fine if you decide the recoil isn't a deal-breaker. Keep at it and see how it works out in your hands. Good luck!

 

[APGE]

For those interested 42.3gr of 8208 netted me 2640fps. ES over 10 shots was 10, however accuracy didn't seem to be much better than my H4895 load.

My 2 cents - 8208 could definitely be considered a suitable powder for 200s. It seems to burn cleaner than just about any other powder I've tried, and there may be advantage in that alone, however my quest for the perfect combination continues.