75 AMax moly in .223

[1000yardstare]

Just processed a new batch of Win .223 brass. Made up my mind to try the "new hi-tech" stuff after two summers of 1950`s "buy and shoot".

Rifle is a 30 inch 8 twist MacLennon barrel on a trued 722 action, Wylde reamer, Timney trigger, Fajen prone stock bedded with JB Weld, Anschutz rail and adjustable butt, Bushnell 4200 6-24 Tactical, Burris Z-rings, Bushnell one piece Tactical rail.

Turned necks 60% with a Sinclair NT-1000, used a Redding neck die with a 0.247 bushing for a start. Bullets can be almost seated with finger tip pressure. 75 gr moly AMax, CCI 450s, H4895. COAL 2.430 to just kiss the rifling. Chronos at 2950 in the summer.

Went to the 300 metre bench range today. Used a Harris bipod, rear sand bag. Light tail wind pushing a light snowfall, 0C (32F). Can`t hope for much more on a Canadian range this time of year. Either keep shooting or find a cave to hibernate in.

Put 10 shots into 2 3/4 inch (0.8 moa) at 300 metres (330 yds) shown in the pix below. Not the normal target I use with my F Class rifles but needed the hi-vis orange in the dim light conditions. Was wearing thin polypropylene gloves so didn`t have perfect trigger control which may explain some of the horizontal dispersion. Used Summer elevation setting so lower impact point probably caused by lower velocity due to cold temp.

 

[manitou210]

I think everything you are doing is very good Mclennan barrels are very good and if Rob put it togeather from what I have seen at Connaught Ranges.
There are quite a few members at club using the 223 they have all tried 75gr Amax's but with very average results. similar or better than you shot, but in summer conditions.
None shoot amax's now they all have switched to Bergers or Sierra's (non moly) I have seen many groups at 300y well under 1" (5 shots) best so far .520" 80gr Berger VLD none are using H4895.
Powders they use are Rl15 ,Varget, & VT 540, and 550 VT with 90gr Beregrs
I think if you use the above powders & bullets you will see a great improvement
good luck
manitou

 

[15Tango]

The only .223 I have is my 20" Bushmaster Hbar I use for service rifle and my single shot load is a 75 grain Berger VLD at 2.465" using 25.5 grains of Varget - it gives me under 1" at 300 yards.

I second what Manitou said and to give some Berger or JLK VLDs a shot and I'd say try Varget for the powder or Reloder 15 because H4895 is a bit fast for a 75 grain in my opinion, especially when you've got a 30" tube you can utilize. Varget is less temperature sensitive than Reloder 15 but R15 flows a little nicer and its load density makes it so you can fit a little more in the case if you want - 25.5 grains of Varget is quite compressed in my loads.

Good luck,

Wayne

 

[1000yardstare]

15tango, I use H4895 under the 75 AMax because I found that the thin AMax jacket deforms when seated over a compressed load of Varget or RX15. No problem with the Sierra MKing but AMax are cheaper and more plentiful in my neck of the woods. So I went with a powder that gave me the velocity I want without having to be compressed.

 

[1000yardstare]

I see references to this thread in another thread regarding the .223AI. Reason I am going with 75 gr bullets is they are more accurate than 80 AMax or 80 MKing in my particular rifle. I have tried them all.

Also I have relegated my .223 F Class rifle to 600 yd max. On paper it looks like an 80gr .223 should be competitive with a 155 gr .308 at 1000 yds but in practical observation during Ontario Rifle Association practises and matches, I see .223 users struggling at the long ranges.

All save for one shooter who almost won the Canadian F Class Champs with a .223. But he is a unique individual who is always in synch with the wind. So maybe what I am really saying is that the .223 seems to be less forgiving in wind reading errors at the long ranges.

 

[Laurie]

Also I have relegated my .223 F Class rifle to 600 yd max. On paper it looks like an 80gr .223 should be competitive with a 155 gr .308 at 1000 yds but in practical observation during Ontario Rifle Association practises and matches, I see .223 users struggling at the long ranges.

223/80 isn't theoretically up to matching 308/155 if you use Bryan Litz's experimentally derived G7 data and compare bullets:

Bryan's average long-range G7 BCs for the best of each are:

0.224"
Berger 80gn VLD ....................... 0.228
Hornady 80gn A-Max ................. 0.231
Sierra 80gn MK ......................... 0.217
Hornady 75gn A-Max ................. 0.212


0.308" (155gn)
Berger 155.5gn ......................... 0.237
Sierra New MK (2156) ................ 0.229
Sierra Old MK (2155) ................. 0.214
Lapua Scenar ........................... 0.236

I don't know what you're running at in Canada, but 308W/155gn has 3,050 fps + or - 50 fps as the F/TR norm here in the UK at GBFCA national league level.

In practical terms, these are the same MVs as you can push an 80gn 0.224" to from .223 Rem, so there's not even any need to run the ballistics program. Whichever bullet has the highest BC will see the least wind deflection - and that's the Berger 155.5gn Match BT FULLBORE or 155gn Lapua Scenar. You will see better performance from the best of the .224" 80s at optimal .223 Rem MVs compared to the 'old' Sierra Palma MK.

The 75gn A-Max is so far down the BC table, it'll only be competitive with the 'old' 0.308 Sierra Palma MK and if it is pushed to over 3,100 fps at that.

.223 Rem with the 90gn Berger or JLK VLD at the 2,800 fps + a bit that your man Clint Dahlstrom and Jerry Tierney in the USA have squeezed out of .223 Rem Palma rifles in their 2008 / 2009 tests is a different matter. With Mr Litz giving the Berger version an average G7 BC of 0.281 it is competitive if you run the program out to 1,000yd against .308W 'beating' any 155gn bullet at 3,075 fps, matching the Berger 185gn Match BT Long-Range at 2,800 fps, but suffering a little more wind deflection than the Sierra or Berger 210gn bullets or Hornady 208gn A-Max at 2,600 fps.


BUT ............... Sierra Infinity VI's recoil calculator function says it generates only a quarter of the free recoil of a .308W using a 210gn bullet at optimal loadings (under 3 ft/lbs v 12 ft/lbs in an 18lb rifle). That's the prize, or rather the potential improvement of the rifle's behaviour on the bipod and rear-bag, if the accuracy is OK and the ballistics work out as the figures say they will.

I put a selection of .223R v .308W F/TR loads together on a Word table - pm me with your email address and I'll send it on.

This is all theoretical of course - eating is always the proof of the pudding as we say on this side of the Atlantic!

Why mention 185 and 210gn bullets? Like American F/TR shooters, there are no bullet weight limits on the class here. The only real technical debate to be resolved in F/TR is which of the .308W bullet weight options is superior. (Well, and whether .223R can be made competitive, which is my 2010 'quest'? But, every other UK F/TR shootger regards the answer to that as (a) a no brainer, and (b) I'm obviously 'barking' [mad]).

Regards,

Laurie,
York, England

 

[1000yardstare]

Laurie. PM sent.

 

[CADDIE5]

Laurie could you please send me the word document for 223 and 308 LOADS to : SLZAGRODNIK@WIDEOPENWEST.COM. Thanks, Caddie5

 

[Laurie]

Caddie5

Copy sent.

E-mail me back if you want any information on the data sources and methodology.

Best wishes,

Laurie

 

[acloco]

1000yardstare - if possible, increase the neck tension on your bullets 0.001 to 0.0015. Has been my experience that H4895 likes just a touch of neck tension.

 

[coues52]

Laurie,would you please send me the info also,resently retired and looking to play with my savage 223 1-7 and looking at having a 308 1-11.25 built for informal f-/tr..dannyb852@msn.com thank you ~Danny

 

[kschilling]

Laurie,
I would like in on all the secrets. Can you please email me that data on .223 and .308. Thanks

kmschilling@gmail.com

Ken Schilling
San Antonio, TX

 

[wolfman]

All save for one shooter who almost won the Canadian F Class Champs with a .223. But he is a unique individual who is always in synch with the wind. So maybe what I am really saying is that the .223 seems to be less forgiving in wind reading errors at the long ranges.

I don't think Dr. Thompson was running the 75 amax, but I could be wrong.

 

[1000yardstare]

I think Jim uses 80 gr SMKs. I will ask him at the June Match in Kingston.

 

[Laurie]

Ken,

email sent.

Here are three very useful sources for anyone interested in making .223 Rem competitive with .308W in Fullbore / Target Rifle and F/TR.

http://www.usrifleteams.com/lrforum/index.php?showtopic=11795

http://www.usrifleteams.com/lrforum/index.php?showtopic=11444

http://www.dcra.ca/Marksman/Winter%20Spring%202008%20Edition.pdf

The Canadian Marksman is an archived issue as a PDF file. Once open, go to page 16 for Clint Dahstrom's report on 90s in the .223.

Laurie,
York, England

 

[1000yardstare]

Great stuff Laurie. I shot .22 Match Rifle with Clint back in the late `60s, early `70s. We were on the Canadian National Team trying to make the Olympic/World/Pan Am Teams. Clint had much more success than me. We see each other now and then at the Canadian Fullbore Nationals in Ottawa.

The Alberta Rifle Assoc. had to build a fullbore civilian range when the Army closed its 1000 yard Palamino range. The range was on a Blackfoot Indian Reserve and the aboriginals wanted the land back. Clint was instrumental in building the civilian range in the foot hills of the Rockies.

 

[Laurie]

Since I've had one or two requests for this ballistics data, I've copied it and stuck it as part of this post. In the Word doc, the figures are in a table whose grid is lost in the copy, so things get a bit out of line. I think it still makes sense though.

Remember, these are just paper ballistics. They don't 'prove' anything - only experience on the range under real conditions will do that. My main concern about .223 as a long-range cartridge is getting MV spreads down to below 20 fps. In my experience, this is much easier with .308W, although others disagree. ES values in the 30-40 fps range probably don't have over much effect up to 600yd, but certainly will affect elevation consistency at 900 and 1,000yd.

The threads that I provided links to in my previous post also list the powders and charges used and the resulting MVs. Jerry Tierney got optimum results with 80s from VarGet and Reloder 15, and from the 90s with Viht N550 and Reloder 15. Don't try N150 with very heavy bullets as it suffers from the onset of a sudden pressure spike, but its double-base high energy stablemate appears ideal. Reloder 17 might just work with 90s too, although I haven't heard of anybody trying it.

Jerry used a 1-7.7" twist barrel in his tests on Sacramento rifle range which is 15 ft ASL but in warm California winter conditions. He reports this twist was marginal for the JLK 90gn VLD, bullets unstable at lower MVs, but was OK for the Berger. He recommends 1-7" twist to be sure of full stability, not the 1-6.5" recommended by Sierra. The 90gn Sierra MK was designed for 20" barrel AR15 XTC rifles and won't stand high velocities it seems. Sierra's technical people say don't go above 2,550 fps with it. People trying this bullet and the 6.5" twist in long-barrel F-Class and Fullbore rifles at higher MVs gave 90s a rather poor name in the cartridge in these disciplines, but the VLDs now appear to offer much more promise. There is also a Berger 90gn Target BT Long-Range long nosed tangent ogive bullet, that may perform well, if my experiences with its bigger .308 brothers are any guide.

There have been several queries on the US Rifle Teams' Long-Range Shooting forum about reamer dimensions. This is probably the main missing link now. If .223 with 90s does catch on, no doubt somebody will come up with an ideal throat form in due course, but there doesn't seem to be one yet. For my upcoming F/TR build, we simply seated a 90gn Berger VLD into a new Lapua so it had just over a calibre's worth of parallel surface in the neck and got PT&G to make a reamer off those dimensions. The COAL of this dummy round is almost 2.7", getting on for .308 Win SAAMI length, and it certainly looks all mean and purposeful!


F/TR Bullet Ballistic Efficiency

Bullets ranked in descending order of performance judged by Deflection in 10mph Crosswind at 1,000yd

Bullet Make, Model & Wt (Best in Class) I7 Value V0 V1,000 D1,000 (Inches/MOA)

.308 Winchester

*Hornady 208gn A-Max 0.967 2,630 fps 1,417 fps 72.74” / 6.9

Berger 210gn VLD 0.979 2,620 fps 1,407 fps 73.42” / 7.0
Berger 210gn Target BT L-R 0.988 2,620 fps 1,399 fps 74.31” / 7.1

Berger 190gn VLD 0.982 2,755 fps 1,392 fps 77.92” / 7.4

Berger 185gn BT M L-Range 0.972 2,790 fps 1,398 fps 78.15” / 7.5

*Sierra 240gn MatchKing 1.092 2,450 fps 1,307 fps 79.35” / 7.6

*Sierra 220gn MatchKing 1.068 2,560 fps 1,322 fps 80.66” / 7.7

Berger 175gn BT M L-R 0.999 2,870 fps 1,454 fps 83.93” / 8.0

*Sierra 200gn MatchKing 1.058 2,685 fps 1,317 fps 84.10” / 8.0

Lapua 155gn Scenar
Berger 155.5gn M Target FB 0.988 3,050 fps 1,331 fps 89.04” / 8.5

Berger 168gn VLD 1.047 2,930 fps 1,282 fps 92.28” / 8.8

*Hornady 178gn A-Max 1.118 2,830 fps 1,213 fps 98.54” / 9.4

*Only suitable long-range bullet available in this weight in the UK. Note – no suitable 180gn L-R bullet. 240 SMK needs 1-9” twist barrel.

MVs
155gn @ 3,050 fps used as a base. Other MVs calculated to produce the same ME (3,200 ft/lbs).


.223 Remington

Berger 90gn VLD 0.911 2,825 fps 1,401 fps 78.53” / 7.5

Berger 90gn Match BT L-R 0.979 2,825 fps 1,314 fps 87.16” / 8.3

Hornady 80gn A-Max 0.987 3,000 fps 1,266 fps 94.97” / 9.1

MVs
Assumed on the basis of Jerry Tierney’s Palma Rifle work at Sacramento. 80gn bullets gave good accuracy at around 3,000 fps and 90gn VLDs at 2,830 fps. (Higher MVs are obtainable.)

Free-Recoil Comparisons (18lb Rifle)

.223 Rem 90gn 2,825fps 2.5 ft/lb
.223 Rem 80gn 3,000 fps 2.5 ft/lb
.308 Win 155gn 3,050 fps 9.2 ft/lb
308 Win 208gn 2,630 fps 9.8 ft/lb
Calculations: Sierra Infinity 6 ballistics program


Data Sources & Assumptions
Bullet efficiency and ballistics performance from Bryan Litz’s book Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting and its associated G7 PC program.
.308W MVs based on 155gn at 3,050 fps MV (norm in UK F/TR ±50 fps) and other bullet weight MVs are calculated on the basis of those that produce the same ME as this base combination. (Actual results using 185 and 210gn bullets support the methodology.)
.223R MVs are those found to give good results in Palma type rifles in tests by Clint Dahlstrom (Viht N550) and Jerry Tierney (Viht N550 + Alliant Re15) in 2008/09 tests. Higher MVs were found to be achievable, but 90gn VLD MV/accuracy seemed to peak at a bit over 2,800 fps. Jerry used a 32” barrel, but subsequently cutting it down saw very little MV loss at 30”.
.223R twist rates. Jerry T used a 1-7-7” Krieger in his tests, Clint D the recommended 1-6.5. The 1-7.7” only marginally stabilised longer 90gn bullets at Sacramento in CA (15ft ASL and temperatures in the 60s F) and Jerry recommends a 1-7” rate to cover all conditions. Experience with 1-6.5” and the chamber throat adopted for XTC AR15s has not been good – bullet blow-up in the case of the 90gn SMK, not brilliant accuracy when the barrel is new and a severe deterioration at around 600 rounds throat wear. 1-7.5” may turn out to be the best rate for most conditions, but could be marginal for the JLK 90 in cold and/or dense air.

 

[Nutjob]

Out of 26" savage 1in9 twist 75 moly amax I get 3120 fps with Benchmark. Great accuracy, low es and sd.