7.62 NATO LC brass... how to resize for .308 winchester

[kritos666]

Hello folks,

I have reached a quandary and i'm hoping you can help.

I searched, but found no answers other than I can use the 7.62 brass if I prep it. Unfortunately no one said how to prep it.

I have adjusted my dies 6 ways to sunday. I can't seem to get it right I have tried in 2 different weapons neither will allow me to roll the bolt completely over. Being new to reloading, I had inadvertently used some Winchester brass from 07 (WCC) and that chambers fine. However the LC from 08, which I just bought a bunch of, is a no go. Based on related articles it seems to have been run thru a machine gun and possibly over expanded. I have already swaged out the primer pockets. The LC brass has a steeper and higher shoulder than both the WCC from 07 and Federal commercial brass. See attached images to demonstrate. Unless I can figure out how to get the head space right I just paid a lot for a bunch of useless brass.


Hopefully you guys have an idea or two.

Thanks much

 

[Rtheurer]

You sure do. I believe you may be right, the LC cases where stretched from here to Heck. Intresting to see that your WCC is actually milspec brass as well. ( note the NATO Stamp) Did that brass come from the same source? Have you shot the WCC brass in your rifle before?
You may have to run the die down more to get it to size farther down. ( Maybe) And give it a few strokes at that. The brass may be rebounding back a fair amount as well. Its memory is that of that rather large Machine gun chamber. The area ahead of the extracor groove may be expanded alot after being shot in a 240B. This may require a Smallbase die to correct after being stretched so much. once that is rectified you may be OK with regular FL die.
6 ways from sunday tells me you have gone as far as setting the die as far down as the shellholder and still have not set the shoulder back far enough. Not all Shellholders are the same height so maybe you want to try a different one of those as well in an attempt to push the shoulder back a lil more. It might be last .001 that you need.
RussT

 

[markm87]

Interesting. We've been running some 70s and 80s LC NATO brass in .308 and it's great stuff. For what ever reason it anneals much more consistently than Lapua.

But resizing hasn't been a problem at all for us.

 

[fdshuster]

kritos666: Welcome to the world of reloading, and unfortunately you've discovered one of the stumbling blocks along the way.

Your rifle may have a minimum dimensioned chamber, as could happen with a chambering reamer that was used for the last time, before being thrown out. They do wear out to a point where further sharpening will take them beyond SAAMI specs.

Salvaged military brass on the other hand is subject to use in full-auto firearms, so the chambers must be cut to maximum dimensions, and when fired the brass is blown out to those oversized dimensions.

You have two choices. (1) Continue to push the shoulders back as far as possible, but you're limited to how deep you can get the case into the die body. When you reach that point (and the case still will not chamber), then you would have to remove some metal from the top of the shellholder ( the easiest fix), or the bottom of the die body. (2) Use a small base die to reduce the diameter of the case head, right in front of the extractor groove.

But, while all these "fixes" are taking place, you are overworking the brass, and even though you may eventually get them to chamber, their usable life will be short.

I hate to say it, but you may be better off selling the problem brass to a scrap dealer ( brass is selling locally for about $2.25 a pound), then buying new Winchester, or if possible, the ever excellent Lapua.

There may be some chambers out there that this brass could be made to fit, but they would have chambers that are on the maximum side of SAAMI specs. & were most likely cut with a new reamer.

This is one of those examples of where it's better to have a smaller amount of something, but higher quality, than a large amount of lower quality.

Not what you wanted to hear, I'm sure, but if it's any consolation, we've all ( well, most of us anyway) been there, done that.

 

[liltank]

Redding small body die, and set the shoulders back a couple thousandths.

 

[BlackEagle]

Have you checked the brass in a case gauge?

 

[PREMOD70]

Get the measuring tools out and measure the headspace of the rifle and compare it to the brass, then measure the brass at the shoulder and at the back at the pressure ring. Once you have those figure written down the judgment can be made as to whether to run the die down to move the shoulder or to get another die that will decrease the major diameter of the brass. Be careful pushing that shoulder back without measuring, you may have gone too far at present, good luck.

 

[fdshuster]

BlackEagle & kritos666: Another way of doing it is to take an as fired case from your chamber & by using the Hornady Chamber O.A.L. gauge, take a headspace length measurement, (be sure to hand punch out the fired primer), and compare that length with the length on the 7.62 brass. Depending on how much longer it is, you may be able to push the shoulder back to that same dimension.

You can also use a micrometer to measure the diameter of the case head, just in front of the extractor groove. As little as .002" too large will prevent chambering. This is the area that would be reduced with the small base die.

I personally have little faith in case gauges. I've had brass that passed the test using a case gauge & they still could not be chambered. They are cut to SAAMI specs, but if your chamber is minimum & the case is maximum, the problem remains. You will get more reliable information directly from your chamber.

I have several case gauges, made by Wilson & Dillon & have not used them in many years since I began using the Stoney Point/Hornady Chamber O.A.L. gauge.

If anyone is interested I have 4 for sale, 3 Wilson's & 1 Dillon. Listed in the "Marketplace".

ps: premod70: We both posted at the same time. fds

 

[jsn]

I think it's either headspace or expanded diameter near the case head. Maybe you could use Dykem or a black magic marker to color the brass, try to chamber it--the scratches will tell you where the problem is. Sort of like jamming a bullet to find where the lands start.

I also have had rounds that fit the Wilson case gauge but still wouldn't chamber. The problem in this case was the expanded web about 1/8" in front of the extractor groove.

Just curious--does the brass in question look a little "yellow" in comparison to older brass you have?

 

[kritos666]

You sure do. I believe you may be right, the LC cases where stretched from here to Heck. Intresting to see that your WCC is actually milspec brass as well. ( note the NATO Stamp) Did that brass come from the same source? Have you shot the WCC brass in your rifle before?
You may have to run the die down more to get it to size farther down. ( Maybe) And give it a few strokes at that. The brass may be rebounding back a fair amount as well. Its memory is that of that rather large Machine gun chamber. The area ahead of the extracor groove may be expanded alot after being shot in a 240B. This may require a Smallbase die to correct after being stretched so much. once that is rectified you may be OK with regular FL die.
6 ways from sunday tells me you have gone as far as setting the die as far down as the shellholder and still have not set the shoulder back far enough. Not all Shellholders are the same height so maybe you want to try a different one of those as well in an attempt to push the shoulder back a lil more. It might be last .001 that you need.
RussT

Hi RussT,

I have shot the WCC before in the rifle without issues. However it came from a different source. I can try to drop the die more. I will give it a go when I get home tonight

 

[kritos666]

kritos666: Welcome to the world of reloading, and unfortunately you've discovered one of the stumbling blocks along the way.

Your rifle may have a minimum dimensioned chamber, as could happen with a chambering reamer that was used for the last time, before being thrown out. They do wear out to a point where further sharpening will take them beyond SAAMI specs.

Salvaged military brass on the other hand is subject to use in full-auto firearms, so the chambers must be cut to maximum dimensions, and when fired the brass is blown out to those oversized dimensions.

You have two choices. (1) Continue to push the shoulders back as far as possible, but you're limited to how deep you can get the case into the die body. When you reach that point (and the case still will not chamber), then you would have to remove some metal from the top of the shellholder ( the easiest fix), or the bottom of the die body. (2) Use a small base die to reduce the diameter of the case head, right in front of the extractor groove.

But, while all these "fixes" are taking place, you are overworking the brass, and even though you may eventually get them to chamber, their usable life will be short.

I hate to say it, but you may be better off selling the problem brass to a scrap dealer ( brass is selling locally for about $2.25 a pound), then buying new Winchester, or if possible, the ever excellent Lapua.

There may be some chambers out there that this brass could be made to fit, but they would have chambers that are on the maximum side of SAAMI specs. & were most likely cut with a new reamer.

This is one of those examples of where it's better to have a smaller amount of something, but higher quality, than a large amount of lower quality.

Not what you wanted to hear, I'm sure, but if it's any consolation, we've all ( well, most of us anyway) been there, done that.

Ironically I was talked into using this brass as its is thick like Laupua. (Which I was intending to buy, Laupua that is) I think I may give a small base die a go before I sell to scrap metal. I should have known.. typically .. you get what you pay for.

At least I'm not the only one that's made this mistake before

 

[Rookie]

I went down this road last year. Rifle is a Winchester Police Marksman. Brass LC08 & LC 06 Match. Neither brass could be sized to fit chamber of the rifle. I used RCBS Small Base FL sizer, Redding FL sizer & Forrester match dies. All with no joy. I sold all LC brass and bought 1000 Wichester cases.
Rifle shoots 1/2moa with 168gr MKs.

 

[fguffey]

In the beginning I thought it was about brass whipping the die and press, now? I believe it is about about the brass/case and press whipping the reloader.

F. Guffey

 

[kritos666]

I went down this road last year. Rifle is a Winchester Police Marksman. Brass LC08 & LC 06 Match. Neither brass could be sized to fit chamber of the rifle. I used RCBS Small Base FL sizer, Redding FL sizer & Forrester match dies. All with no joy. I sold all LC brass and bought 1000 Wichester cases.
Rifle shoots 1/2moa with 168gr MKs.

I get 1/2MOA with 168 SMKs with comercial as well .. sadly not with LC .. I was planing on trying the small base die... your comment isn't making me happy, ... but I appreciate it

 

[Rtheurer]

Its a PITA sometimes. In the end it might have been just easier to buy Winchester or what ever off the shelf.
If I was retired and had nothing to do and the brass was free and I knew that I may only get 3 more loadings from it.... No big deal.
On the other hand if I was in a hurry and needed brass and had little time to load ammo i would be more inclined to get the good stuff right away.
Like your WCC NATO brass I have alot of LC brass as well and it is just fine..... But has only been fired in a Rifle and never a Machine gun. So no problem. Just FL size, load and shoot. So in retrospect its not the LC cases... Its what they where fired in prior to you purchase that created the issue.

Keep us posted on what happens since Im sure there are folks that are going to read this down the road.

 

[Calumet]

kritos666,
Why not just cut off one of the LC cases just below the shoulder, de-burr then run through the sizer, & try to chamber. This would eliminate shoulder setback question. If the case still won't chamber, then the problem probably is case head expansion.
A small base die then would probably take care of the problem.
Calumet

 

[kritos666]

Well I got it working.. Thanks to a suggestion from another forum. I tried to take the expander ball of or the die to limit stretching the neck, however I was working with a used set of dillon dies. and in trying to take the expander ball off, I found out it had been loctite'd .. as such without a lot of work, I left it. Then I went with plan B. I decided to heck with it. and just kept cranking down the die .. it ended up being 3 full rotations past bottoming out on the ram. But, now all of the shoulders are correct. The guy that suggested this to me is in the military and get.. you guessed it only rifle fired brass -not- M240 brass. Thus for him it worked like a charm. Ill run thru this stuff. and chalk this up as a lesson and a 1/2.

Thanks again guys