There are a lot of you out there that love both ppc and br in 6mm. Has anyone out there played with a PPC with a fast twist rates,like 8" or 10" twists) with bullets from 90gr to 107gr to compete with the BR'S on the same playing field? Some of you will say there is more room for powder in the BR case. The PPC parent case,220 Russian) wont hold as much powder as the br case and this is understood. I would just like to get as feed back on this as I have lots of ppc shooting equipment and none in the BR category at this time. I love reading about the 6mm Dasher with the 105 and 107 bullets working out to 1000 yards. I want one or two or three .....I don't intend to cause controversy with a new thread but just hear feedback from those that have had the same questions as I and the accuracy of each.
6ppc vs 6BR with heavy bullets and fast twists
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- Start date
MarkS
Silver $$ Contributor
Bullet,
I shoot IBS 600 yds benchrest, and shoot a 6BRX,6BR IMP). Some of the guys I shoot with have used 6 PPC with 10 or 8 twist, and have done very well. Some are using a 6 Grendel, it is made from the 6.5 Grendel cases. the Grendel is made from the 6PPC or the 220 Russian. You can buy the Grendel brass and neck down or make from 220 RU.)
The 6 Grendel has about the same capacity as the 6BR, and looks just like a smaller 6BRX.
Mike Davis and Larry Isenhour are two that have used the 6 Grendel. They come in on this post.
You could have the PPC bolt face opened up to take the Br case and go from there.
I don't have any load info for the 6 Grendel. you could add a post here and Benchrest.com on the 600 & 1000 yd board.
Mark Schronce
I shoot IBS 600 yds benchrest, and shoot a 6BRX,6BR IMP). Some of the guys I shoot with have used 6 PPC with 10 or 8 twist, and have done very well. Some are using a 6 Grendel, it is made from the 6.5 Grendel cases. the Grendel is made from the 6PPC or the 220 Russian. You can buy the Grendel brass and neck down or make from 220 RU.)
The 6 Grendel has about the same capacity as the 6BR, and looks just like a smaller 6BRX.
Mike Davis and Larry Isenhour are two that have used the 6 Grendel. They come in on this post.
You could have the PPC bolt face opened up to take the Br case and go from there.
I don't have any load info for the 6 Grendel. you could add a post here and Benchrest.com on the 600 & 1000 yd board.
Mark Schronce
Forum Boss
Administrator
The 6mmAR is the 6.5 Grendel necked down to 6mm. It comes pretty darn close to 6mmBR performance with long bullets, particularly in the "improved" 6mmAR turbo version.
This round has been very successful in AR-based match rifles.
See: www.6mmAR.com
This round has been very successful in AR-based match rifles.
See: www.6mmAR.com
bullet
I'm one who has played with the 6PPC/heavy bullets/fast twist, and I've even won a few fake-wood trophies with it. It is possible to shoot the 95 grain past 3000 fps and even the 105 grain bullets very close to 3000 if you use a long barrel. The PPC is a very accurate short range cartridge no matter what you shoot and it is still accurate with the heavy bullets out to 600 yards. But, in my experience you are better off with a bigger case when conditions are not good. You simply need more speed. If conditions are good, the PPC with a lighter bullet,such as 70 grains)in a 12 or 10 twist will compete with the bigger cases, and even beat them if you do your part. So, bottom line - there isn't a place for the PPC case and heavy bullets - IMHO.
Ray
I'm one who has played with the 6PPC/heavy bullets/fast twist, and I've even won a few fake-wood trophies with it. It is possible to shoot the 95 grain past 3000 fps and even the 105 grain bullets very close to 3000 if you use a long barrel. The PPC is a very accurate short range cartridge no matter what you shoot and it is still accurate with the heavy bullets out to 600 yards. But, in my experience you are better off with a bigger case when conditions are not good. You simply need more speed. If conditions are good, the PPC with a lighter bullet,such as 70 grains)in a 12 or 10 twist will compete with the bigger cases, and even beat them if you do your part. So, bottom line - there isn't a place for the PPC case and heavy bullets - IMHO.
Ray
Bullet,,,I used a 6 Grendel,6 AR) all of last season in 600yd benchrest. Early in the year I was winning some wood with it and did pretty good for the whole season.
The round is a long PPC. As Mark said, you can neck down 6.5 Grendel brass and load and shoot. You can also make the brass from .220 Russian cases, or even neck down 7.23x39 cases if that is all one had to work with.
I have found R-15 works well. In my Lilja barrel 28.8 grains of it would give me 2837fps, and was very accurate. Also I have started using H-4895 and it seems to be just a little better in my gun. 29.3 gr of it gives me 2838fps. Both these loads are with Danzak coated Berger 105VLD's and Fed-205M primers.
This round is very accurate. The only downside is the velocity compared to a BRX or Dasher. I also have a 6BRX and can easily get 3000fps from it with 105VLD's. The extra velocity would be an advantage in windy conditions.
We are having a "fun" match at Piedmont this Saturday and I am going to try the Grendel with 95gr. Sierra Match Kings. I can get 2948fps out of them and still have the accuracy. We will see.
Bullet, if you are really interested in this round, my suggestion would be to get in touch with Robert Whitley at 6mmAR.com and talk to him. He has dies and brass and even reamers I think. If you go to that website you will find all the info you need.
Hope this helps.
Larry Isenhour
The round is a long PPC. As Mark said, you can neck down 6.5 Grendel brass and load and shoot. You can also make the brass from .220 Russian cases, or even neck down 7.23x39 cases if that is all one had to work with.
I have found R-15 works well. In my Lilja barrel 28.8 grains of it would give me 2837fps, and was very accurate. Also I have started using H-4895 and it seems to be just a little better in my gun. 29.3 gr of it gives me 2838fps. Both these loads are with Danzak coated Berger 105VLD's and Fed-205M primers.
This round is very accurate. The only downside is the velocity compared to a BRX or Dasher. I also have a 6BRX and can easily get 3000fps from it with 105VLD's. The extra velocity would be an advantage in windy conditions.
We are having a "fun" match at Piedmont this Saturday and I am going to try the Grendel with 95gr. Sierra Match Kings. I can get 2948fps out of them and still have the accuracy. We will see.
Bullet, if you are really interested in this round, my suggestion would be to get in touch with Robert Whitley at 6mmAR.com and talk to him. He has dies and brass and even reamers I think. If you go to that website you will find all the info you need.
Hope this helps.
Larry Isenhour
I read somewhere that a 107gr. Sierra can be driven faster in a 6PPC than on a 6BR... and the accuracy is equal or better.
I think a 6PPC with heavier bullets is a very valid system... specially in some countries where there are limits of guns a person can have.
Another reason is some economy on brass and dies.
If the performance is the same or better than a 6BR, it may be a better option for someone who wants to shot Short Range BR and Mid-Range F-Class, for example...
I think a 6PPC with heavier bullets is a very valid system... specially in some countries where there are limits of guns a person can have.
Another reason is some economy on brass and dies.
If the performance is the same or better than a 6BR, it may be a better option for someone who wants to shot Short Range BR and Mid-Range F-Class, for example...
I read somewhere that a 107gr. Sierra can be driven faster in a 6mmBR than on a 6mmPPC... and the accuracy is equal or better.
I think a 6mmBR with heavier bullets is a very valid system... specially in some countries where there are limits of guns a person can have.
Another reason is some economy on brass and dies.
If the performance is the same or better than a 6mmPPC, it may be a better option for someone who wants to shot Short Range BR and Mid-Range F-Class, for example...
GRIN....,I culdnt let this one go any longer)..not trying to be contradictory....but I read a lot about Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny on the internet also!!!
Happy New Year....
I think a 6mmBR with heavier bullets is a very valid system... specially in some countries where there are limits of guns a person can have.
Another reason is some economy on brass and dies.
If the performance is the same or better than a 6mmPPC, it may be a better option for someone who wants to shot Short Range BR and Mid-Range F-Class, for example...
GRIN....,I culdnt let this one go any longer)..not trying to be contradictory....but I read a lot about Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny on the internet also!!!
Happy New Year....
I found out the email I received from a US shooter on Benchrest.com Forum and this is part of it:
"you can shoot up to 115 grainers with the 1-7 and the little ppc wil get almost 2900 fps with the 115 grain berger.
...
I used h-4895 and varget powders,28.5 grains worked good with the 115 berger.
if you go get a barrel,i would get a 1-8 twist and use the 95 berger vld,the ppc will drive it to 3050 fps and it will win at 600 yards,for a 1000 yards,use the berger 105 or lapua 105 or the sierra 107,i got great groups with the 107 sierra at 600 yards,they ran in the 1.5 inch range."
I asked him about why the PPC would get this velocity very similar to BR case and he said may be the right powder for the case induces a more efficient load.
Anyway, I have no reasons to not believe this shooter and would like to know what is the experiences of other shooters.
If I had the abundance of components, barrel makers, powders, gunsmiths and freedom,not strictly laws), I would try it myself and found out what a PPC with heavier bullets can and cannot do...
"you can shoot up to 115 grainers with the 1-7 and the little ppc wil get almost 2900 fps with the 115 grain berger.
...
I used h-4895 and varget powders,28.5 grains worked good with the 115 berger.
if you go get a barrel,i would get a 1-8 twist and use the 95 berger vld,the ppc will drive it to 3050 fps and it will win at 600 yards,for a 1000 yards,use the berger 105 or lapua 105 or the sierra 107,i got great groups with the 107 sierra at 600 yards,they ran in the 1.5 inch range."
I asked him about why the PPC would get this velocity very similar to BR case and he said may be the right powder for the case induces a more efficient load.
Anyway, I have no reasons to not believe this shooter and would like to know what is the experiences of other shooters.
If I had the abundance of components, barrel makers, powders, gunsmiths and freedom,not strictly laws), I would try it myself and found out what a PPC with heavier bullets can and cannot do...
The data is pretty close...I can get 3150 with a 27 in bbl,8 twist Krieger)with those same 95 VLD's...and aprox another 40 fps. with 540...but not as accurate as with Rx-15 in my rig...being the conservative guy that I am I setteld on the slower Rx-15 load...and I have shot several groups around 1" at 600 and 9 in 3 in at 1000yds,one case neck split and droped a shot out the bottom adding another 3" to the group..grrrrr...)...Roger
Hi Lynn...I got a peace bond out for Santy Clauz,he has to stay 200yds from my house..hahaha.....so if he is usin a PPC he is OK from there...ahahha......as you pointed out the lack of case capacity really bites the PPC with the big uns,100gr and up)..necessary for long range competition....except when it is "dead" calm....IMHO the BR is absolute min. case capacity for 1000...but just rite for 600!!....,do I sound like Goldie Locks...grin) say hi to DAD....Roger
Larry Koch
Silver $$ Contributor
Any new intel on this subject??
wvlongshot
Gold $$ Contributor
I've tried several combos in last 2 years of ppc in 8, 10, and 12 twist with 80's and 105 class in the 8 tw. Just can't push em fast enough to agg well for that last little bit of precision in the breeze. Killer in the calm till the wind stirs up.
On not regarding twists, is the reason the PPC is more accurate than the 6BR in benchrest because of the 6BR case having too much capacity?
Mulligan
Silver $$ Contributor
with the heavies, did you try 2520 or n530?
CW
wvlongshot
Gold $$ Contributor
N133 and Lt32 mostly.
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
I cant imagine a ppc getting over 3000fps with a 108 when a br case holding more powder wont do it.
Mulligan
Silver $$ Contributor
Why is 3K important?
CW
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
Its not important nor desirable actually, but it was said above somebody was doing it
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