I'm looking for the 6PPC guru's to chime in on this. I'm looking to do another rifle build. Here in Houston, with only 1 or 2 exceptions, the local ranges are 100/200 yards. I'd like a rifle to use strictly for shooting tiny little groups at 100 and sometimes 200 yards. The 6PPC was the first caliber that came to mind. I have a great 6BR for long range. I'm interested in things like, at short distance will I get better groups with a short fat/stiff barrell? Thinking Stiller Viper with a Shehane stock. Fixed power scope,T-24 or T-36). I only compete with my son,16 yrs) and my own sorted mind. I need a real tack driver. What am I missing? Thanks cwood.
6PPC Specialty Rifle
- Thread starter cwood3
- Start date
MarkS
Silver $$ Contributor
cwood3,
Sound like you have things going the right way. another round that would be good is a 30BR. If you have Score match for 100 & 200 around, it would be great. But you want go wrong with a PPC. If you were to get in to Score shooting, the stock have to be per benchrest rules. Shehane would have one that would work.
Mark Schronce
Sound like you have things going the right way. another round that would be good is a 30BR. If you have Score match for 100 & 200 around, it would be great. But you want go wrong with a PPC. If you were to get in to Score shooting, the stock have to be per benchrest rules. Shehane would have one that would work.
Mark Schronce
CWOOD -
Howdy !
Sounds like a bench rest gun, to me.
A # 7 taper barrel of bewteen 20-22 ".
While you so far didn't mention " making" it into a certain wt class, you may want to consider making the rifle of legal
wt/specs for either " Light Varmint " or " Heavy Varmint " class
Much fun as it is to beat up on our kid when shooting, you both may find even greater challenge/fun in formal BR competitions.
Evrybody tries hard/harder.
Many shoot a LT Varmint gun, for both classes.
A T36 would do for your "informal" shooting, unless you have incredible mirage most of the time ?
For full-tilt bench work, most everybody shoots w/ evnehigher maginification. The Weaver would accept a Gene Davis optical booster, and that may be one route for you to consider ?
Kelbly's has many actions that see wide-spread use.
There's no shortage of good choices, if $$$ is not a limiting factor.
Best of luck in your endeavors.
Regards,
357Mag
Howdy !
Sounds like a bench rest gun, to me.
A # 7 taper barrel of bewteen 20-22 ".
While you so far didn't mention " making" it into a certain wt class, you may want to consider making the rifle of legal
wt/specs for either " Light Varmint " or " Heavy Varmint " class
Much fun as it is to beat up on our kid when shooting, you both may find even greater challenge/fun in formal BR competitions.
Evrybody tries hard/harder.
Many shoot a LT Varmint gun, for both classes.
A T36 would do for your "informal" shooting, unless you have incredible mirage most of the time ?
For full-tilt bench work, most everybody shoots w/ evnehigher maginification. The Weaver would accept a Gene Davis optical booster, and that may be one route for you to consider ?
Kelbly's has many actions that see wide-spread use.
There's no shortage of good choices, if $$$ is not a limiting factor.
Best of luck in your endeavors.
Regards,
357Mag
My 6mmBR has a Shehane Lee Six Thumbhole, very sweet stock. I was looking at the Shehane MBR stock for this build. Another issue comes to mind. I like to load quality rounds, I'm just not sure how deep I want to get as far as necks are concerned. I know a lot of PPC-er's use anywhere from .262" to no-turn. I wonder about having a chamber reamer built at Pacific and using that same reamer to hone the dies. I'm probably going to use Lapua 220 Russian brass. So maybe the reamer should be built to Lapua brass specs. Wouldn't I be able to fire form one time and neck size from there on out ? Need more wisdom in that area. I know it's hard to get the most accuracy from the easy way out,kinda like quick, cheap, and quality...doesn't exist).
Thanks for the comments.
Thanks for the comments.
cwood3 said:
First let me state that the difference in accuracy between the 6BR and the 6PPC, will never be seen on paper from the casual shooter. Only a competitive BR shooter, who puts a ton of shots downrange under match conditions over windflags, will see the advantage of the 6PPC. And even then we are only talking about a few thousandths of an inch average in the long run. Lots of folks think that the PPC is magic, but 95% of the accuracy comes from the barrel, assuming good quality components and gunsmithing. A 30-30 can be made to shoot lights out with the right barrel and bullets.
If you do decide to build a short range BR rifle, my suggestion would be to use a gunsmith that specializes in short range BR rifles...and have him build you 10.5lb gun. If you ever decide to sell the rifle, it'll be easy to find it a new home that way.If you want a sweet wood stock for a 100/200 BR rifle, call Terry Leonard. For Actions, there are many suitable makers, same with barrels. As to brass, virtually all BR shooters use Lapua 220 cases. And almost none shoot a no-turn neck. The seating die and a neck die can be cut with the chamber reamer, but most BR shooters FL size after each firing. There are many die options out there, but my favorite is Harrell's for a FL die, I cut my seaters with the chamber reamer. Houston does have a range,Tomball) that holds regular BR matches, you might look into that. If nothing else, you can talk to fellow shooters that have been bitten by the extreme accuracy bug as well.
Tightneck,
I hear what you're saying. My reasoning on 6PPC is because even though I have a 6BR that shoots great, I have to produce another rifle or I will never get to shoot again. My son has all but told me straight up that if I ever want to shoot again we have to get another rifle. That being said and knowing that 95% of all our shooting will be 100-200 yds, why not go with a cartridge that is noted for just that? For an action, I've pretty much settled on a Stiller Viper. they are only 4-hours up the highway from me. Barrell selection is up in the air, leaning towards Kreiger but I am getting advice from Stiller as they will be setting up the barrell/action. My selection of the Shehane stock comes from my experience with my previous build. Bill Shehane sent me an inletted stock that was just as dead on as far as additional fine tuning inletting that I had to do, it was great. Heck, I know that any well thought out rig with quality parts and workmanship is gonna shoot better than I am capable of. Not so sure about my son though. He's young, smart, and enthusiastic. Who's to say that as he progresses through life and the shooting sports that he will not become a very competitive shooter? I wouldn't send him to violin lessons with a Wal-Mart violin.
I hear what you're saying. My reasoning on 6PPC is because even though I have a 6BR that shoots great, I have to produce another rifle or I will never get to shoot again. My son has all but told me straight up that if I ever want to shoot again we have to get another rifle. That being said and knowing that 95% of all our shooting will be 100-200 yds, why not go with a cartridge that is noted for just that? For an action, I've pretty much settled on a Stiller Viper. they are only 4-hours up the highway from me. Barrell selection is up in the air, leaning towards Kreiger but I am getting advice from Stiller as they will be setting up the barrell/action. My selection of the Shehane stock comes from my experience with my previous build. Bill Shehane sent me an inletted stock that was just as dead on as far as additional fine tuning inletting that I had to do, it was great. Heck, I know that any well thought out rig with quality parts and workmanship is gonna shoot better than I am capable of. Not so sure about my son though. He's young, smart, and enthusiastic. Who's to say that as he progresses through life and the shooting sports that he will not become a very competitive shooter? I wouldn't send him to violin lessons with a Wal-Mart violin.
JoeDuke
Gold $$ Contributor
cwood, The Tomball gun club hosts a club shoot about 4 times a year. The classes shot are factory, modified, and benchrest. There are about 18 to 20 shooters show up. It is laid back and fun but run as a benchrest match is. It is a score match. It is a great place to come shoot and to see what real benchrest rifles look like and shoot like. It is a fun place to shoot your factory rifle or your hot shooting varmint rifle and see how they measure up. You can also get all your questions answered as to what works and why.
The first match of 2009 will be in February. It will be most publicised over on BR central. Send me an email to jeduke43 at sbcglobal.net if you have additional questions.
Joe
The first match of 2009 will be in February. It will be most publicised over on BR central. Send me an email to jeduke43 at sbcglobal.net if you have additional questions.
Joe
From a "used to be short range group shooter"
Read the posts and agree with
,1) Get a experienced B.R. smith to build a 10.5 lb. gun.You never know when the opportunity may come to shoot competitive.
,2) get the bolt face .473 with extractor that will handle the 6 PPC.
,3) 1-14 twist barrel.
,4) Lapua 220 Russian brass in a tight neck chamber for 6PPC.
Don't agree
,1) PPC barrel lasts for 1200 rnds. That is bull&^$#. I personally know of an exceptional barrel that shot 5,000 rnds.I did my best shooting,way back when) with a barrel that shot for 3,500 + rounds. The general consensus then was a barrel would hold its best for 2000+ rnds., we are talking of adding.025 to.050 in. here.
My thoughts on your project---
Go to a BR group match at 100 or 200 yds. and watch an ask questions of the guys that do it. Even if you never shoot a NBRSA OR IBS group match you will have a rifle that will give many,many years of pleasure.
jerrold
Read the posts and agree with
,1) Get a experienced B.R. smith to build a 10.5 lb. gun.You never know when the opportunity may come to shoot competitive.
,2) get the bolt face .473 with extractor that will handle the 6 PPC.
,3) 1-14 twist barrel.
,4) Lapua 220 Russian brass in a tight neck chamber for 6PPC.
Don't agree
,1) PPC barrel lasts for 1200 rnds. That is bull&^$#. I personally know of an exceptional barrel that shot 5,000 rnds.I did my best shooting,way back when) with a barrel that shot for 3,500 + rounds. The general consensus then was a barrel would hold its best for 2000+ rnds., we are talking of adding.025 to.050 in. here.
My thoughts on your project---
Go to a BR group match at 100 or 200 yds. and watch an ask questions of the guys that do it. Even if you never shoot a NBRSA OR IBS group match you will have a rifle that will give many,many years of pleasure.
jerrold
cwood3 said:
Both the IBS and NBRSA rulebooks have definitions of a legal stock. You can get download the IBS rulebook of the IBS website. Anyhow, most of the stock makers have stocks specifically designed for the varmint classes, so you can't go wrong. Shehane makes a legal stock for short range BR, but I'm not sure if the wood he uses is light enough to be suitable for a 10.5lb rifle. You don't see many of them on the line, thats for sure. Long range is a different story. For composite stocks, Stiller, Borden, McMillan all make all make good stocks. For laminated wood, Terry Leonard makes the nicest as far as I'm concerned. But Tony Larson makes very nice stocks and one of the stocks that all others are judged by is the Scoville.
I wasn't trying to discourage you from the PPC, just pointing out that the difference is hardly noticeable. By all means, build a PPC and don't look back...
Oh yeah, as for the short barrel life, I'm not sure how one could burn more powder with the same bullet weights, more velocity...and get TWICE the barrel life of the another cartridge? The earlier poster was comparing a fast twist 6BR with a slow twist 6PPC, which is apples and oranges. Many short range BR shooters call a barrel uncompetitive when it has fired a certain number of rounds. Some use a very low threshold, as little as 600 rounds. Others may choose 1000. Some however, shoot a barrel until they feel its lost its competitive edge, could be thousands of rounds later...
Bill Shehane makes the ST-BR that is a very nice stock. There is a Heavy Varmint,13.5 lb) in short range isn't there? In all seriousness, you all are right and I do want to have this gun legal in some 100-200-300 yd competition because my knowledge of how my son's mind works tells me that he will, eventually, want to shoot with other good shooters. Same way he learned guitar, messing around with great musicians....and he got hooked. I'm going to peruse around some of the afore mentioned stock makers' websites. Thanks again. I'm probably going to ask why the .262 and .263 necks are so popular. As long as your dies are honed/machined to properly size a cartridge for the particular chamber with the desired neck tension, clearances, etc. doesn't it become kinda the same ?
JoeDuke
Gold $$ Contributor
Cwood, one thing I neglected to mention is that the Tomball Gun Club is a private range; not normally open to the public. They open it up to us,I am not a member) when there is a match held there. They hold both registered Benchrest matches,NBRSA group matches) and club matches. The club matches are score matches and much less formal. Still as competitive, just a little more laid back. Probably the best place to answer some of your Benchrest,note the capital "B") questions is to go to http://benchrest.com/ and browse that whole site. There is mirads of information about organizations, classes, rifles, match types, neck sizes, etc. More info that you can absorb in a short time. However, to answer some of your questions.
In pointblank Benchrest,registered competition at 100, 200 and occassionally 300 yards) there are really four classes of rifles.
1. A sporter rifle - maximum weight 10.5 lbs, caliber 6mm or larger, stock foreend not more than 3" wide.
2. A light varmint rifle - maximum weight 10.5 lbs, any caliber, stock foreend not more than 3" wide.
3. A heavy varmint rifle - maximum weight 13.5 lbs, any caliber, stock foreend not more than 3" wide.
4. unlimited rifle, basically must be safe. :>)) Most of these are rail guns.
There are more stock specifications for the first three classes above dealing with minimum drop of the heel. You have to read the rules a few times to understand them but what you have to know is that lots of the long range style stocks will not work because the buttstock bottom and the foreend bottom are much too parallel to meet the short range rules. Mr. Shehane makes great stocks but he is mostly a long range shooter and so are most of his stocks. I am not bad-mouthing him as I have a couple of his stocks and like them but they are on long range style rifles.
Now, the other thing that will help you is to know that you can always shoot up in class in Benchrest. That is, you can shoot your Sporter in the sporter class, the light varmint class, the heavy varmint class, and even in the unlimited class if you so desire. That is why you will see people recommending you build a 6ppc as your first rifle. You can shoot it competitively in all the classes. However, if you build a heavy varmint rifle, in registered competition, then you are limited to the heavy varmint class and the unlimited class if you so desire to shoot there.
On Neck sizes. Many years ago when the PPC cartridge is developed, the brass they used was bad enough that they had to turn the stuff down to around .260 - .261,combined total of the bullet diameter and two neck wall thicknesses) before it yould clean up and be uniform in thickness all the way around. Many reamers, chambers, dies, etc. were developed around these dimensions and are still used by many shooters today. However, the brass quality is much better and you do not have to turn the necks that thin to work. So, many folks today develop their program around a larger neck size such as .269. They have to turn less material off, necks are more durable, etc. Both lines of thought on neck thickness are used successfully today.
Again, I would urge you to come out to the Tomball club match, look around, ask questions; better even yet, bring your rifle out and have a good time. If you are like me, you will see more there than you can absorb.
Joe
In pointblank Benchrest,registered competition at 100, 200 and occassionally 300 yards) there are really four classes of rifles.
1. A sporter rifle - maximum weight 10.5 lbs, caliber 6mm or larger, stock foreend not more than 3" wide.
2. A light varmint rifle - maximum weight 10.5 lbs, any caliber, stock foreend not more than 3" wide.
3. A heavy varmint rifle - maximum weight 13.5 lbs, any caliber, stock foreend not more than 3" wide.
4. unlimited rifle, basically must be safe. :>)) Most of these are rail guns.
There are more stock specifications for the first three classes above dealing with minimum drop of the heel. You have to read the rules a few times to understand them but what you have to know is that lots of the long range style stocks will not work because the buttstock bottom and the foreend bottom are much too parallel to meet the short range rules. Mr. Shehane makes great stocks but he is mostly a long range shooter and so are most of his stocks. I am not bad-mouthing him as I have a couple of his stocks and like them but they are on long range style rifles.
Now, the other thing that will help you is to know that you can always shoot up in class in Benchrest. That is, you can shoot your Sporter in the sporter class, the light varmint class, the heavy varmint class, and even in the unlimited class if you so desire. That is why you will see people recommending you build a 6ppc as your first rifle. You can shoot it competitively in all the classes. However, if you build a heavy varmint rifle, in registered competition, then you are limited to the heavy varmint class and the unlimited class if you so desire to shoot there.
On Neck sizes. Many years ago when the PPC cartridge is developed, the brass they used was bad enough that they had to turn the stuff down to around .260 - .261,combined total of the bullet diameter and two neck wall thicknesses) before it yould clean up and be uniform in thickness all the way around. Many reamers, chambers, dies, etc. were developed around these dimensions and are still used by many shooters today. However, the brass quality is much better and you do not have to turn the necks that thin to work. So, many folks today develop their program around a larger neck size such as .269. They have to turn less material off, necks are more durable, etc. Both lines of thought on neck thickness are used successfully today.
Again, I would urge you to come out to the Tomball club match, look around, ask questions; better even yet, bring your rifle out and have a good time. If you are like me, you will see more there than you can absorb.
Joe
Joe,
Thanks. I do recall someone in some post mentioning that Tomball was private, long waiting list. Oh I'll be out there on the next match to take some notes. I haven't been out to American Shooting Center,Westheimer/Hwy 6)but I hear they have out to 600 yds. I work right by there. Guess I'm going to have to do some rethinking on stocks. The SG & Y MBR on Stiller's site looks interesting. I just want to make sure that the things I can control, like materials selection, I do the best I can. There are plenty of things I can't control, like my 50 yr-old nerves, I'll have to deal with. Thanks again.
cwood3
Thanks. I do recall someone in some post mentioning that Tomball was private, long waiting list. Oh I'll be out there on the next match to take some notes. I haven't been out to American Shooting Center,Westheimer/Hwy 6)but I hear they have out to 600 yds. I work right by there. Guess I'm going to have to do some rethinking on stocks. The SG & Y MBR on Stiller's site looks interesting. I just want to make sure that the things I can control, like materials selection, I do the best I can. There are plenty of things I can't control, like my 50 yr-old nerves, I'll have to deal with. Thanks again.
cwood3
Yeesh.........now comes the part I hate. Between the top ten barrel manufacturers, there seems to be only about 50-60 $$ price spread. I know, they all are good. Maybe you guys can help me narrow this down......remember, 6PPC to shoot 100-300 yds targets only. I'm fairly set on the Viper,or maybe the Cobra..prolly the Cobra). I guess when I get the actual stock weight, action weight, scope/rings weight, trigger/trigger guard weight.....that will govern what the max barrel length can be and still make LV weight. I remember seeing a page somewhere that listed what equipment people were shooting in matches.......that might be a place to start.
cwood3
cwood3
Well, there are a bunch of good barrel makers out there today. I've become a Bartlien man because of the outstanding customer service, relatively quick delivery times, and quality of the barrels. They are so consistent that I find loads interchangeable from one barrel to the next. I've used others, from Hart, Lilja, and Shilen and Kreiger with few complaints as well. But I find myself always having barrels on order at Bartlien...
CWOOD..........
I'm sure that the project is well underway now. To get what you want and even have a competitive legal rifle for IBS/NBRSA 100/200 Group and VFS Score shoots...Simple.... Listen to Jerry Stiller........ That's it. He will build you a gun of your dreams.
Update on project is required...:wave:
Good luck,
cale
I'm sure that the project is well underway now. To get what you want and even have a competitive legal rifle for IBS/NBRSA 100/200 Group and VFS Score shoots...Simple.... Listen to Jerry Stiller........ That's it. He will build you a gun of your dreams.
Update on project is required...:wave:
Good luck,
cale
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