6ppc fireforming problem..Help?

[joshb]

Hi all: I’m having a bit of trouble trying to fireform some brass.
I bought a lightly used LP Panda with a 6ppc barrel that I’m trying to get up and running. I bought some lightly used brass for it that was already turned for a .260 loaded round to use in my gun’s .262 chamber. The base to shoulder length is short for my gun and I’m trying to push the shoulder forward to fit.
For the first try, I sized the neck only, using a .258 bushing and set the bullet at .001-2 jamb. At the range, only 15 out of 50 went off.
I came home and pulled them apart.
For the next try, I used a .257 bushing (neck only, didn’t touch the shoulder) and set the bullet at a.02 jamb. It was better this time but about 25 out of 65 rounds still failed to fire. I had to use a cleaning rod to push the bullets back out of the gun. Powder everywhere!
I ordered and received a .256 bushing for my next try.
Lapua brass, 68 Berger, H322. All loaded rounds are .260-.2605.
Am I doing it wrong and is there a better way?

 

[Greyfox]

I'm having the same issue using new Norma 6PPC brass. I am about .010 short at the shoulder. I'm intending to change to a softer primer and a slower powder so I can use a compressed load. If I get a chance to try a few this afternoon, I'll report results.

Rick

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Hi all: I’m having a bit of trouble trying to fireform some brass.
I bought a lightly used LP Panda with a 6ppc barrel that I’m trying to get up and running. I bought some lightly used brass for it that was already turned for a .260 loaded round to use in my gun’s .262 chamber. The base to shoulder length is short for my gun and I’m trying to push the shoulder forward to fit.
For the first try, I sized the neck only, using a .258 bushing and set the bullet at .001-2 jamb. At the range, only 15 out of 50 went off.
I came home and pulled them apart.
For the next try, I used a .257 bushing (neck only, didn’t touch the shoulder) and set the bullet at a.02 jamb. It was better this time but about 25 out of 65 rounds still failed to fire. I had to use a cleaning rod to push the bullets back out of the gun. Powder everywhere!
I ordered and received a .256 bushing for my next try.
Lapua brass, 68 Berger, H322. All loaded rounds are .260-.2605.
Am I doing it wrong and is there a better way?

Full length size the cases but back the die off some...to the point that the brass grows in length rather than gets the shoulder bumped back and try Federal primers. If that fails, you might need to create a false shoulder on the necks to get a firm crush fit. I've never had much luck with jamming the bullet into the lands to hold the case against the bolt face when the pin strikes.

Have you checked to see if the headspace is correct? If not, a talk with your smith might help.

 

[joshb]

Thanks. BoydAllen and RayPorter PM’d me to suggest expanding the necks to create a false shoulder. I’ll go that route. I was using Federal primers and you’re right: Jambing the bullets wasn’t working!
Thanks guys!

 

[rangertim]

I blow Brass out all the time that's pushed back 15 thousands I push my new 6BR back 15 thou expand up to 30 turn necks to 9.5 all the way into shoulders like normal or like I hadn't pushed them back at all, Load a couple grains light seat bullet to 20 thousand jam ! Yes hard jam keep lugs on bolt greased a lot, lightly oil case with 3M oil fire away !!! Now you have a case that fits real good , And you will not have a donut never ! PS I purchased some cheap 125 grain bullets for this

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I blow Brass out all the time that's pushed back 15 thousands I push my new 6BR back 15 thou expand up to 30 turn necks to 9.5 all the way into shoulders like normal or like I hadn't pushed them back at all, Load a couple grains light seat bullet to 20 thousand jam ! Yes hard jam keep lugs on bolt greased a lot, lightly oil case with 3M oil fire away !!! Now you have a case that fits real good , And you will not have a donut never ! PS I purchased some cheap 125 grain bullets for this

Unrelated, maybe, but why do you push the shoulder back .015 before expanding up to 30 and/or firing?

 

[snowpro440]

I do what rangertim says... works well for me .

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I do what rangertim says... works well for me .

Interesting...Then I'll ask you. What does pushing the shoulder back .015 before turning and/or firing accomplish? Thanks in advance.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Nevermind. I see it in rangers post. Thanks anyway. I've never done it that way but if it works for you...great. Resolving a donut is not where my thoughts took me. I still thought we were trying to help with failure to fire issues. I don't see how adding .015 more headspace will help with that but again, if it works for you...great.

 

[Ccrider]

I have shot a lot of Norma 6ppc brass. Though it is short, I never had a misfire. I load long and let the lands push the bullet in. I call this a hard jam. Two firings and you are good to go. I use 28 to 28.7 for the first two firings.

 

[AckleymanII]

Firing pin springs used to be strong enough to seat bullets deeper in the fire forming process, thus creating case stretching. How much stretching is detrimental to long case life?

The crowd that I ran with always expanded up to 25 caliber and created a false shoulder, kept the lugs lubed.

I ended up with various lengths(shoulder to bolt face) of fire formed cases when I used oil when fire forming. Also, the lettering on the case head was often all mangled up, which indicated that the firing pin was driving the bullet into the case, then the case was slamming back onto the bolt face with some serious velocity.

There is something wrong with MY method of using oil on the cases, vs what Rangetim is doing. I would suspect that the amount that I was sizing the necks to hold the bullet is the weak link...just a guess.

More than one way to skin a cat.

 

[michaeljp65]

If those lightly used brass you bought were from a different barrel, your just wasting bullets, powder and primers. The bushings have nothing to do with the misfires. The misfire brass are to short in headspace for your chamber, when you fire them the firing pin is pushing the case forward in the chamber and cannot fire the primer. Those that misfire i would throw them out. Start with new 220 russian brass, turn neck for your chamber and fire form. Then you have new brass for your chamber.

 

[Greyfox]

Not really taking a good or bad position on any of this, but I'll share my experience just for the purpose of information. I recently bought, then resold a Farley to a friend who has no experience with a PPC. I offered to do the brass. After FF some 220 R Lapua with a FF barrel using .22 bullets we loaded up some match bullets and determined the rifle would shoot very well. I had quite a bit of Norma brass and chose to try it. We were going to FF during a UBR match. Almost nothing would fire due to the excessive headspace. I would add that I did form a false shoulder with a .257 expander and seated the bullets very long. Yesterday I pulled the bullets, dumped the powder and reprimed with Remington 7 1/2s. Loaded 30. grs of 4350 and a 70gr Sierra hard jammed. The cases fired perfectly and made a nice sharp shoulder. Could I have accomplished the mission by just changing primers? Maybe, but I wanted to be sure this time and It worked well.

Rick

 

[Bruce W]

Fill the case with H4895. As this will crush and be right up to the base of the bullet which should be seated to have a good contact with the rifling. When you fire the round the case full of slower burning powder will hold everything in place so that the firing pin does'nt push the case forward apon firing causing the misfires.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I see you got the correct answer- false shoulder. 25cal die of any type will do it

 

[rangertim]

When doing my method, that I learn from a friend that is in the score Shooters hall of fame and a great gunsmith, and one Great Person that has helped many. I wanted to give credit, were credit was due ! You are actually cutting the shoulder without cutting it to deep when it's shoved back 15 thousands, and when it's blown forward it gives the brass so much room to grow as it moves back to its original shape. I had a mandrel turned to fit the fired brass tightly and go back and skim turn a second time and with the donut it was not possible, so I can basically shoot it a few times run it on a second Turner with out doing anything but Lube ! Another thing I have found that my cases don't grow, I expanded up from 6mm to 30 in 5 steps yes I know but what else do you do in the middle of dead winter, and my cases come out so much straighter and my 30 BR cases measure 1518 and after firing they stay That Lenght, after 100 200 yd score match 50 cases still measured 1518 to 1519 and I had my reamer grind to a 1530 OAL I don't like to worry about trimming and I anneal after every match ! But you have to use lots of Neck tenion to hold the jamed bullet tight and keep the base tight against the bolt head and the light oil keeps the case from sticking to the chamber walls so it doesn't stretch at the web ! Maybe it is all witch craft ! but I have never had trouble doing it this way and it works ! No misfires. Yes it's lots of work but Benchrest isn't always easy and case prep is a very important port of accuracy! Just like Great Bullets, Great Barrels , and Great Dark Beer ! Well maybe not Dark Beer !

 

[Lucky6547]

Not to hijack the thread, but if turning to preempt the donut, wouldn’t expanding the neck to a caliber larger, then turning, then sizing down and creating a false shoulder be easier on the brass than bumping the shoulder way back like that?