6mm PPC Accuracy and Bullet stabilization.

[Webphut]

I been trying to find a load for my not custom "Sako 6mm PPC" with .262" NK.

Unfortunately, I think I have been approaching this from the wrong understanding. I been approaching this with the mindset, once my bullet holes are all touching on the target, and no keyholes, then my bullet is stabilized. If I am not seeing "keyholes" in my targets, does bullet stability have anything to do with the group size? In other words, if the bullets are stabilized, is it possible to have big groups, not one large ragged hole so to say?

My 5 shot groups are a ragged .375" center to center at 100 yards. My gut is telling me that this is not tight enough and I have not found the right load yet. Am I at that point in the hobby where I need to consider purchasing a used/retired Benchrest rifle to get better group sizes?

Could the rifle be holding me back or am I holding back the capabilities of the rifle?

Is this how it happens for most Benchrest shooters?

Due to stage fright, I have no desire to compete or shoot "Benchrest" so to speak. I just want the smallest groups possible.

 

[BoydAllen]

There are several factors that could be limiting your rifle's accuracy. What kind of rest and rear bag are you using, what bench, trigger weight, scope, trying to shoot free recoil? What is your current load, including seating depth, neck tension and loaded round runout? Has your rifle had its action bedded? Bullet stability guarantees nothing with regard to group size.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

If your stock is the factory stock youre probably doing better than expected but all the things boyd mentioned are in play as well

 

[Peterson1]

Go to a benchrest match and compare your shooting ability to those there.
If available get a mentor to help and critique your shooting/results.
A mentor can help if you wish to move into a benchrest gun.
I didn't see flags mentioned--those are a necessity to shoot small groups.
Its easy to spend money in this game, go slow and buy only what you are sure you need.
Most matches are won by the one who didnt shoot a large/huge group.
Good luck, feel free to ask questions.
CLP

 

[Rdlningcltchdmpr]

I been trying to find a load for my not custom "Sako 6mm PPC" with .262" NK.

Unfortunately, I think I have been approaching this from the wrong understanding. I been approaching this with the mindset, once my bullet holes are all touching on the target, and no keyholes, then my bullet is stabilized. If I am not seeing "keyholes" in my targets, does bullet stability have anything to do with the group size? In other words, if the bullets are stabilized, is it possible to have big groups, not one large ragged hole so to say?

My 5 shot groups are a ragged .375" center to center at 100 yards. My gut is telling me that this is not tight enough and I have not found the right load yet. Am I at that point in the hobby where I need to consider purchasing a used/retired Benchrest rifle to get better group sizes?

Could the rifle be holding me back or am I holding back the capabilities of the rifle?

Is this how it happens for most Benchrest shooters?

Due to stage fright, I have no desire to compete or shoot "Benchrest" so to speak. I just want the smallest groups possible.

It is almost always the powder and amount that makes accuracy or lack thereof. I have match grade guns that will make a 1.5" group with wrong powder and amount, that same gun will shoot in the high zeros or one's with a perfect powder type and amount.

 

[BoydAllen]

It is almost always the powder and amount that makes accuracy or lack thereof. I have match grade guns that will make a 1.5" group with wrong powder and amount, that same gun will shoot in the high zeros or one's with a perfect powder type and amount.

I am going to politely disagree a bit here. Of course having the right charge weight is very important, but you cannot get the best groups that an accurate rifle is capable of without close attention to tuning seating depth. Years ago, when I was first learning about how to improve the accuracy of my rifle it amazed me how much difference a change in seating depth can make. And for the record, I have never shot a group that was even close to an inch and a half with my 6PPC, no matter what the powder charge.

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

I am going to politely disagree a bit here. Of course having the right charge weight is very important, but you cannot get the best groups that an accurate rifle is capable of without close attention to tuning seating depth. Years ago, when I was first learning about how to improve the accuracy of my rifle it amazed me how much difference a change in seating depth can make. And for the record, I have never shot a group that was even close to an inch and a half with my 6PPC, no matter what the powder charge.

Totally agree with Mr Allen

 

[Nick Caprinolo]

I hate to even comment here because of the esteemed company above, but here is one thing that solved an accuracy for me on a Varmint rifle of mine. the rifle a 22-250 Remington 700 was not shooting the groups I had hoped for. It was suggested that I start adjusting the the mounting screws torque. After working on this, I took a decent rifle and made it a very good rifle. Don't get hung up with the factory settings. Every rifle is different, and the front screw torque might need to be different than the rear screw.

Everything stated by Boyd applies also. He knows this game in and out and is always willing to give good advice.

One thing I have learned is that to compete either in matches or against one's self, is costly. A good quality front rest will cost more than your rifle. I have attended a few matches as a spectator. I was amazed at the amount of equipment being used by the competitors there. I doubt anyone there had less than $5,000 invested.

Boyd, if I am all wet here do not be afraid to jump in a correct me. I will always be willing to listen to you.

Nick

 

[BoydAllen]

Not to correct, but to add something, sometimes I get the impression that shooters do not fully appreciate that bedding is as important to consistent and best accuracy as it is. Of course plastic stocks do not lend themselves to being worked over extensively for a couple of reasons but if yours is wood or is something that has a bedding block, which would put it above the typical injection molded cheap factory stock, you can generally gain in consistency and overall accuracy by bedding the action.

One of the "advantages" that I had when I first started shooting and reloading for a CF rifle was that I did not have the money to pay a gunsmith to work on my rifle, and being a fairly mechanical hands on guy, I taught myself to do my own work, at an adequate, if not professional level. That first rifle was a second hand Remington 788 in .308 and my first efforts at reloading were done with a Lee Loader powered by a plastic mallet that I still have. I fitted a pad, refinished the stock, floated the barrel, bedded the action, and installed a lighter trigger spring, all without benefit of the internet. It was a great way to learn. If I had started with a fancier, more expensive rifle, I might have been afraid to touch it. As it was, it was not only a great introduction to shooting, but it gave me my start working on my own rifles, something that to one degree or another I still do.

 

[Webphut]

What kind of rest and rear bag are you using
what bench
trigger weight
scope
trying to shoot free recoil?
What is your current load, including seating depth
neck tension
loaded round runout
Has your rifle had its action bedded?
------------------------------------
Hart front rest with windage adjustment leather rabbit ear sandbag in rear.

Concrete benches

Trigger weight: I am not sure. It is the Canjar set trigger, but I can not get a reading on my lyman trigger pull weight tool, I think the way the trigger works does not allow for it to register on the tools screen.

Scope is a Leupold VX-3 6.5-20x40mm Scope

I’m using free recoil and heart rate control method

Rifle tracking: My rifle rotates a lot during reloading because the action is the factory Sako action in the factory varmint stock. The rotation is heavy and this causes the rifle to rotate which drastically effects the tracking of the rifle. I will be adding a front rest rider plate to the fore end of the stock to give me a flatter wider stance over the front rest. I think this will help reduce some of the rolling effect I currently have while reloading.

I am still working on finding a load/bullet combination for my rifle using LT-32 and H322. I am not happy with the grouping yet though. On a different powder though, I have found two loads using Reloader 7 and 10x.

As for my brass, I was using Lapua 220 Russian cases, but do to my lack of consistency in neck wall thickness, I recently purchased those already turned down 6ppc Norma brass from Brunos shooting supply. I am excited to give the Norma brass cases a try since I do not shoot real hot loads.

Load #1
Lapua Brass Full Length Resized using .258" bushing
CCI BR4 primers
24.5 grains of Reloader 7 Powder
70 grain Nosler Balistic Tips bullets
1.700" C.O.A.L. to ogive
5 shot group size: .278" center to center at widest points


Load #2
Lapua Brass Full Length Resized using .258" bushing
CCI BR4 primers
24.5 grains of Reloader 10x Powder
70 grain Nosler Balistic Tips bullets
1.700" C.O.A.L. to ogive
5 shot group size: .312" center to center at widest points

I currently do not measure the runout of my reloads simply because I have not purchased the tool yet, but it is on the wishlist.

I inherited this particular rifle and I have not done anything to it beside trying to figure out the twist rate of the barrel using the tight cleaning patch method. From what I can see, yes, the action has been entirely bedded. The barrel is full floating. The Canjar Trigger was already installed when I took posession of the rifle. I added a mirage shield. I have had it looked at by a gunsmith, not a benchrest gunsmith, but a gunsmith and was told there is nothing more he could do to the rifle as far as improving the accuracy of the rifle. I have since located one true benchrest gunsmith and do plan on having this company look at it for anything else that might be able to be improved as far as smith work goes.

 

[BoydAllen]

A couple of things to start: There is no way that that stock is suitable for shooting free recoil. The good news is that there are top benchrest shooters who do not shoot that way...but there are "rules" for getting the best results holding. Are you holding your rear bag when the shot breaks? The reason that I ask is that that rear bag is not up to current benchrest standards if you are not. Until he switched to a joy stick rest, because of arthritis in his left hand, Tony Boyer shot free, squeezing his rear bag, so if your stock was suitable, it could be done that way with that bag, but it is not. Your pulse issue likely comes from face contact. If you look at benchrest rifles they typically have their scopes mounted very high so that shooters can keep their faces off of the rifle. A friend who was all about low scope mounting had a pulse problem for years, until I encouraged him to use the highest rings for putting a new scope on one of his very accurate custom varmint rifles. Another question, How did you come up with your seating depth? Where are your bullets in relation to touching the rifling. To end on a more positive note, that is a fine looking rig. I have an older and gnarlier version of that rest. It has served me well, and I have that rear bag, as well as several others, including some that do work well for shooting free. IMO you are doing very well with that rifle. I am just trying to help you wring a little more out of it.

 

[Webphut]

Thank you. I have since collected several other of Sako A series Varmint rifles. I love the way the beaver tail fore-end looks, I fell in love at first sight.

As for the free recoil and height of scope. I will move the large sized rings on this rifle and give it try.

The heart rate control thing is just something my father taught me when I first started hunting when I was 7 years old. Honestly, unless I pay attention and see if I am doing it, the only thing that I really notice every shot is the pulse I get in the tip of my trigger finger when I shoot.

I usually slide my left arm/hand right in front of my chest and grip the rear bag and squeeze it for elevation adjustment. I do not touch the rifle except with my trigger finger. I kind of like hover over/behind/over the rifle as I look through the scope. Hard to explain. The only recoil I feel is when rifle slides back into my shoulder.

I would not know how to use the newer coaxial front rests as I never shot off one before and I do not feel I can fiddle with the joystick/ handle while trying to shoot. It may do me more harm. I have A.D.D. and Dyslexia real bad, so I can only physically and mentally do one thing at a time. I am not up to date as for the rear bags that people shoot with these days. These two rests came with the rifle, so I figured I would use them.

The seating depth on the target in the photos are from last year. This year, I am seating the bullets .010" off the lands. Last year for consistency, I decided to just load all the same bullets to a set length to ogive. After some research, this year I changed to .010" off the lands. I plan to, if I ever get to the point in accuracy, to play with the distance off the lands to see if this tightens up my groups, but this was after I found a bullet powder combination I liked. As for the powder and bullet combination, many people flat out told me ohh no, you gotta get rid of the RL and try this and that, but in all honesty, if I do not see better results with the LT32 or H322, I most likely will go back to RL7 and 10x and start messing with seating depths.

 

[Tim s]

I am going to politely disagree a bit here. Of course having the right charge weight is very important, but you cannot get the best groups that an accurate rifle is capable of without close attention to tuning seating depth. Years ago, when I was first learning about how to improve the accuracy of my rifle it amazed me how much difference a change in seating depth can make. And for the record, I have never shot a group that was even close to an inch and a half with my 6PPC, no matter what the powder charge.[/QUOTE

This is rather interesting and prompts a question.
I have been following closely various comments regarding seating depth thus the question.
I suspect you know this but if not mistaken, Beggs has commented Seating depth is largely a myth, changes in groups being more random regarding same.
I believe Bart has commented here that he shoots all his bullets jumped between .005” and .010” which, while not exactly the same, obviously substantially narrows things down.
Me personally, I have for a number of years, never had a good barrel with proven bullets that did not do OK with about .005”-.007” worth of jump, so while I don’t mean to hijack the thread looking for any/all comments.

 

[Webphut]

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[Webphut]

Go to a benchrest match and compare your shooting ability to those there.
If available get a mentor to help and critique your shooting/results.
A mentor can help if you wish to move into a benchrest gun.
I didn't see flags mentioned--those are a necessity to shoot small groups.
Its easy to spend money in this game, go slow and buy only what you are sure you need.
Most matches are won by the one who didnt shoot a large/huge group.
Good luck, feel free to ask questions.
CLP

There is one range close to where I live that holds regular/scheduled matches. Unfortunately it is private. I need to wait before I can join though. But I would love to see a match.

The other ranges in my area do not have official shoots with any national level recognized organizations. In fact, to think about it, I think I am one of maybe 10 people that I have ever seen group shooting. 97% of the shooters I see are there just to get their rifle on paper to kill something. As far as reloading at the range on the shooting bench, I never see anyone do that. I feel weird sometimes reloading at the bench. I get a lot of funny looks or lots of questions and then of course the expectations that follow once they talk to me. Remember i get stage fright real bad and last thing I like is to be under the spot light. Just assume go crawl in a hole and come back when the dust settles.

I am not shooting with flags yet. I have yet to see anyone shoot over flags. I have always wondered why no one shoots over flags at the public ranges. I have read Tony Boyers book, so I understand the why, just need to learn the how part. I was going to go buy some 1/4" round metal stakes and tie 2 foot long pink ribbon to them and put a few of those in the ground between my bench and my target. I know its not the best flags, but figure its a start.

 

[Peterson1]

There is one range where I live that holds regular/scheduled matches. Unfortunately it is private. I would love to see a match just to see one, but like I said, the one range in my area that does have matches is private. I have poked and prodded at trying to join this one club, but I have yet to be able to join.

The other ranges in my area do not have official shoots with any national level recognized organizations. In fact, to think about it, I think I am one of maybe 10 people that I have ever seen group shooting. 97% of the shooters I see are there just to get their rifle on paper to kill something. As far as reloading at the range on the shooting bench, I never see anyone do that. I feel weird sometimes reloading at the bench. I get a lot of funny looks or lots of questions and then of course the expectations that follow once they talk to me. Remember i get stage fright real bad and last thing I like is to be under the spot light. Just assume go crawl in a hole and come back when the dust settles.

I am not shooting with flags yet. I have yet to see anyone shoot over flags. I have always wondered why no one shoots over flags at the public ranges. I have read Tony Boyers book, so I understand the why, just need to learn the how part. I was going to go buy some 1/4" round metal stakes and tie 2 foot long pink ribbon to them and put a few of those in the ground between my bench and my target. I know its not the best flags, but figure its a start.

Webpahut
Go to NBRSA web page
Pull up ranges
Texas is in Gulf coast region
There is 7-8 Clubs in Tx holding Benchrest matches
Hope one would be close for you to attend?????????
Call a match director close to you and ask if there is fellow BR shooters close by you????
We have to get you involved in this sport.
Sounds like you have the desire--just a little bashful like we all were once before we became "Know it Alls".
CLP

 

[Webphut]

Webpahut
Go to NBRSA web page
Pull up ranges
Texas is in Gulf coast region
There is 7-8 Clubs in Tx holding Benchrest matches
Hope one would be close for you to attend?????????
Call a match director close to you and ask if there is fellow BR shooters close by you????
We have to get you involved in this sport.
Sounds like you have the desire--just a little bashful like we all were once before we became "Know it Alls".
CLP

I am interested in joining Tomball gun club. It is a few minutes from our home, but I am unable to commit the necessary amount of time to be competitive let alone driving to neighboring states for weekend shoots. Currently it just something I do between dropping off and picking up our children from school. Its about all the time I can afford to spend on shooting right now. I make do with what I have for the time being. I figure in about five years, I will be able to make a paid membership to a gun club worthwhile for not only me, but also the fellow members.

 

[Webphut]

I shopped around locally for property to build my own 300 yard range, but property prices put it out of reach.

 

[Peterson1]

I shopped around locally for property to build my own 300 yard range, but property prices put it out of reach.

If your close to Tomball gun club get their schedule.
Their matches are open to the public and no charge to observe/watch a match.
You can buy a lot of gas driving to a range versus buying land and building.
You will be surprised at you comfort level at a match especially if they know your a potential new shooter.
Give it a try--you will meet some great people!!!
CLP

 

[Webphut]

I had no idea that the matches were open to the public. I think I will go check it out then. Thanks for the info. I never would have thought. I just figured since it is a private club, no outsiders welcome unless invited.