You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
6mm bullet pointing
- Thread starter Bluto65
- Start date
200 to 300 yard shooting would show no improvement. where you see the improvement is at 600+ yards--especially at the 1000 yard line. but, i don't think that it is really worth the time invested. after talking to several bullet makers, it is very easy to deform the meplat and the gain made is minimal at that. you are better off buying good bullets from the start
I tend to agree with Cole. At 500 meters where I do most of my long range 6BR shooting in a blind test I could see no difference between pointed and non pointed Berger 105 VLD's. Since I had borrowed the die I pointed everything up that I had regardless. However if I had to spend the $250 to buy the die I think I'd pass and just use the money to buy more bullets.
Danny
Danny
Thanks for the info. I was told by some very good 600yd shooters that the Berger VLDs [105gr] used to have a smaller hole/meplat but Berger made it a bit larger diam because the mold removal pins were breaking off. They said they noticed a difference in groups between the old and new bullets.
Kinda peaked my curiosity. Maybe it is just a "shooters" tale???
Kinda peaked my curiosity. Maybe it is just a "shooters" tale???
I shoot Berger 105 BT (not VLDs) and have noticed a difference in the bullet profile in the new part number bullets, causing me to have to reset my seating die. I have found NO change in accuracy or a need to change elevation of my sights.
I am like a moth to a flame when it comes to new "do-dads" to overcome my inability to shoot in the wind. So far I ahve resisted this flame.
Happy Thansgiving,
George
I am like a moth to a flame when it comes to new "do-dads" to overcome my inability to shoot in the wind. So far I ahve resisted this flame.
Happy Thansgiving,
George
Bluto,
This is true in regard to the yellow box Target 105 VLD's because of the thicker jackets involved. However the Orange box Hunting 105 VLD's have remained the same in regard to a smaller meplat because of the thinner jacket. I use the Orange box version in my 6BR's since I'm not dealing with the high velocities that would require the thicker jackets.
Danny
This is true in regard to the yellow box Target 105 VLD's because of the thicker jackets involved. However the Orange box Hunting 105 VLD's have remained the same in regard to a smaller meplat because of the thinner jacket. I use the Orange box version in my 6BR's since I'm not dealing with the high velocities that would require the thicker jackets.
Danny
I was doing some fireforming 2 years ago with a 6.5mm at a 600 yd. match and pointed ½ the bullets and left the other ½ as is. The bullet used for the match was a 139 Lapua and at 600 there wasn’t even .25 moa difference between the pointed and un-pointed bullets. Now at 1K, the advantage is substantial, depending on the bullet used of course. I have found between 1.5 and 3.0 moa difference at 1K depending on the bullet, caliber, starting velocity etc.
I hope this helps,
Lloyd
I hope this helps,
Lloyd
OK here is the scoop.
I "bit the bullet" and got a Whidden Kit from Sinclair. A slight mistake. They send out the dies with
a #0 [zero] pointing die, they have no others. I needed one for 105 Berger VLD Target bullets which
is a #1 [one] pointing die. Ordered one today from Whidden. I will do the best "meplat squeezing" I can
and test at the 600yd range with pointed vs. regular bullets. I will post the results mid December.
Probably also do 300meters just to see what happens. 6mm Berger 105 VLD, Lapua brass, Wolf small
rifle magnum primers, 30gr Varget loads. These shoot the best on my rifle Barnard & Bartlein 30in [heavy].
I "bit the bullet" and got a Whidden Kit from Sinclair. A slight mistake. They send out the dies with
a #0 [zero] pointing die, they have no others. I needed one for 105 Berger VLD Target bullets which
is a #1 [one] pointing die. Ordered one today from Whidden. I will do the best "meplat squeezing" I can
and test at the 600yd range with pointed vs. regular bullets. I will post the results mid December.
Probably also do 300meters just to see what happens. 6mm Berger 105 VLD, Lapua brass, Wolf small
rifle magnum primers, 30gr Varget loads. These shoot the best on my rifle Barnard & Bartlein 30in [heavy].
Lucky prospector
gas man
Bluto65, I for one can not wait to find out what your results will be! Lucky Prospector. Thanks for the test ideas.
I saw a consistent 0.25 MOA gain in elevation at 600 yards with the Widden system pointed 105 grain Berger Target VLD over the non-pointed bullets. This was from a 6 Dasher running at 3070 FPS. Also, there was an even 1 MOA improvement in the 140 grain 6.5mm Berger Target VLD at 1000 yards (6.5-284). These were also running at 3070 FPS. The improvement was very clear and consistent, as I have been shooting the Berger's for a few years now in both calibers, and the come-ups definitely changed by the above stated amounts. There was no change in group size after pointing, neither better or worse. Both rifles shot in the 2's and 3's before and after pointing.
I ended up making a special shell holder compatible fixture for my Redding T7 press to aid in the pointing process. This fixture allows you to simply drop the bullet into a shallow (~0.375" deep) hole, then run the ram up into the pointing die. The hole ID is just enough over the bullet OD that the fixture centers the bullet and the bullet base has the only point of contact with the fixture. However, the hole is deep enough that the bullet will stay put and be straight enough to start into the die cleanly as the ram is raised. I made it out of bearing bronze 'cuz that was what was close at hand on the scrap shelf.
Can't be happier with the process. Free (and more uniform) BC, what's not to like?
Cheers,
Chris
I ended up making a special shell holder compatible fixture for my Redding T7 press to aid in the pointing process. This fixture allows you to simply drop the bullet into a shallow (~0.375" deep) hole, then run the ram up into the pointing die. The hole ID is just enough over the bullet OD that the fixture centers the bullet and the bullet base has the only point of contact with the fixture. However, the hole is deep enough that the bullet will stay put and be straight enough to start into the die cleanly as the ram is raised. I made it out of bearing bronze 'cuz that was what was close at hand on the scrap shelf.
Can't be happier with the process. Free (and more uniform) BC, what's not to like?
Cheers,
Chris
techshooter said:Can't be happier with the process. Free (and more uniform) BC, what's not to like?
It's not free (you had to buy the die), and according to the rest of your post, it made no effect on group sizes. So the bullet printed higher because of a slight increase in BC, but the overall gain was nothing. So, my question now is, why put the time into it?
I've been seriously considering picking one of these up, but keep convincing myself not to. I'm really curious why there's such a divide amongst shooters as to whether these pointing dies are worth their weight?
edit: I reread the first part of my post, and I really sounded like an a$$hole! Please don't take it that way! I'm simply trying to extend the discussion on interesting topic.
Walt
Like I said in my post above I saw no difference at 500 meters with Berger Orange box 105 VLD's. They printed exactly at the same spot in elevation and since vertical is almost non existant in my load i could tell no difference there. Group size which to me means everything was the same also.
Here's how to do a blind test: Take a red sharpie and color one or the other bullet tips. Then put them all in a dish and without looking at the tips pull and shoot them at the same target. The red tip bullets will leave a red hole in the paper.
This will tell the tail for you without you subconciously altering the results.
Danny
Here's how to do a blind test: Take a red sharpie and color one or the other bullet tips. Then put them all in a dish and without looking at the tips pull and shoot them at the same target. The red tip bullets will leave a red hole in the paper.
This will tell the tail for you without you subconciously altering the results.
Danny
A few years back, I sent 58 Clinch River 106 grain 6mm VLDs to Jason Baney for testing -- the meplats had been closed on each of them. I knew Jason was shooting the same bullet in his 1000 BR light gun in the same chambering I was using in a Gilkes-Ross prone rifle -- 6BR.
Doing a round robin test at the PA club, shooting RL-15 behind closed meplats and unaltered meplats, Jason shot a 2.xxx group with the closed meplats and a 5.xxx group with the unaltered meplates. Of significance is the fact that the closed meplats also printed almost 18" higher on the target.
I already knew what the test results would be before I sent the bullets to Jason as the vertical component was almost exactly what I had experienced with my prone rifle while shooting 1000 yards at Ft. Benning and Camp Butner.
18" in vertical is huge and that converts to a better wind deflection number. Additionally, the closing of the meplats to a uniform dia gives a uniform BC that helps at the target.
I have closed the meplats on over 60,000 bullets since 2002 using the original Pindel die. We tested the difference in groups and vertical with many calibers at John Whidden's 1000 yard range. Of course, John has used the closed meplats inwith every chambering since 2006.
BTW, the results of Jason Baney's testing, along with pictures, was posted on BRC. It also means something to me that Jzson won the World Open that year with his little 6BR -- shooting closed meplats.
In conclusion, there is NOTHING that you can do to a given pet 100 yard load that will enhance your performance as much as closed meplats -- just a fact. I have no financial bias on this position as I have never charged a penny for any bullets I have pointed for anyone.
All the testing has been done by others so you don't have to re-invent the wheel, so to speak. Just close the meplats and shoot.
Favor Center,
Jim Hardy
Doing a round robin test at the PA club, shooting RL-15 behind closed meplats and unaltered meplats, Jason shot a 2.xxx group with the closed meplats and a 5.xxx group with the unaltered meplates. Of significance is the fact that the closed meplats also printed almost 18" higher on the target.
I already knew what the test results would be before I sent the bullets to Jason as the vertical component was almost exactly what I had experienced with my prone rifle while shooting 1000 yards at Ft. Benning and Camp Butner.
18" in vertical is huge and that converts to a better wind deflection number. Additionally, the closing of the meplats to a uniform dia gives a uniform BC that helps at the target.
I have closed the meplats on over 60,000 bullets since 2002 using the original Pindel die. We tested the difference in groups and vertical with many calibers at John Whidden's 1000 yard range. Of course, John has used the closed meplats inwith every chambering since 2006.
BTW, the results of Jason Baney's testing, along with pictures, was posted on BRC. It also means something to me that Jzson won the World Open that year with his little 6BR -- shooting closed meplats.
In conclusion, there is NOTHING that you can do to a given pet 100 yard load that will enhance your performance as much as closed meplats -- just a fact. I have no financial bias on this position as I have never charged a penny for any bullets I have pointed for anyone.
All the testing has been done by others so you don't have to re-invent the wheel, so to speak. Just close the meplats and shoot.
Favor Center,
Jim Hardy
Walt:
No offense taken. When I said that the groups were no different before and after pointing I was referring to 200 yard test groups. This is the range that I proof (via multiple 5 shot groups) loads before heading to the longer ranges. At 600 and up I am shooting F-Class open competitions, and never groups. My statement was meant to communicate that the bullet pointing did not improve (or degrade) raw accuracy, but the clear increase in average velocity (rise in elevation) due to pointing would definitely help (a little, granted) in windage effects at mid and long range. I'll take any help I can get when shooting competitions. The cost of the die (a one time thing) was well worth it to me. A 1 MOA improvement at 1K is a small increase in BC, small enough that I'll never be able to see the effects clearly in terms of windage due to variable conditions. However, that BC gain is real, and it therefore must be helping my scores just a little, even if I can't measure it like I can the elevation changes. The effect of making the meplat smaller also decreases the BC variation due to meplat size tolerances when the bullet is manufactured. The effect is similar to trimming the meplats, but, IMHO, better as you get a slightly higher BC than trimmed bullets. In my opinion, there is a definite benefit or gain to pointing, and it is worth my time and money. Hence my comments above.
Cheers,
Chris
No offense taken. When I said that the groups were no different before and after pointing I was referring to 200 yard test groups. This is the range that I proof (via multiple 5 shot groups) loads before heading to the longer ranges. At 600 and up I am shooting F-Class open competitions, and never groups. My statement was meant to communicate that the bullet pointing did not improve (or degrade) raw accuracy, but the clear increase in average velocity (rise in elevation) due to pointing would definitely help (a little, granted) in windage effects at mid and long range. I'll take any help I can get when shooting competitions. The cost of the die (a one time thing) was well worth it to me. A 1 MOA improvement at 1K is a small increase in BC, small enough that I'll never be able to see the effects clearly in terms of windage due to variable conditions. However, that BC gain is real, and it therefore must be helping my scores just a little, even if I can't measure it like I can the elevation changes. The effect of making the meplat smaller also decreases the BC variation due to meplat size tolerances when the bullet is manufactured. The effect is similar to trimming the meplats, but, IMHO, better as you get a slightly higher BC than trimmed bullets. In my opinion, there is a definite benefit or gain to pointing, and it is worth my time and money. Hence my comments above.
Cheers,
Chris
i am a firm believer in pointing now but only after you trim,that being said i ran 100 yd. groups at the mid 1's with a Dasher before and after pointing so it didn't hurt anything. At 500 yd's. groups were smaller and my drop was less than the non pointed,group size was smaller and less wind drift. Shooting over good flags and good conditions it shot small,like .588 - 1.00" and at 1K smallest was .689 mostly 3.00".This was done with DTAC.115"s and Berger 108's at 500. I'm still learning the the long range game but loading good ammo starts with good bullets and pointing helps i use the Hoover trimmer and pointer,I can close the hole on the J4's but the hard DTAC's i can make very very small........jim
'
'
As Jim Hardy has posted, there is no question that carefull bullet pointing improves the consistency of the BC of the bullets, which reduces vertical, at any range. Whether it is worth it to you personally is exactly that, a personal choice. I personally feel more comfortable shooting pointed bullets, as 1 less variable is a good thing for me. I have seen my scores improve, but I am a sling shooter, your results may vary.
Ed
Ed
OK I tested 6mmBR at the 200yd range. Three shot groups, normal 105 vld Match Bergers and Pointed 105 VLD Match Bergers. I used the Whidden die with a #1 insert [recommended for the 105 Berger VLD]. I did not over squeeze the meplat hole but did reduce it by more than half the original diameter. The points were not bulged or cone shaped like with the #0 die.
Results; Normal bullets grouped at 0.312, 0.750 & 0.812
Pointed bullets grouped at 1.560, 1.375 & 2.25
The pointed bullets also had flyers which I obviously did not count as groups.
My conclusion is that my pointed bullet process is messed up or that pointing is a pain or it is not
too friendly. If I have this much trouble getting the process correct this means another sorting type process which to me is not worth the time. I will "read the wind" to the best of my ability, I suppose you could say as the song "It is written in the wind my friend, it is written in the wind".
Could be the press distorted the bullets axis. The seating dimensions were identical with normal and pointed. So I suppose the ogive was correct. Neck dimensions were same for normal and pointed after seating. Wind was 10mph coming from my right shoulder at a left angle [to my left], kinda steady not gusty.
Please if you have any opinions on what I am doing wrong let me know.
I am not going to test at the longer ranges; 300meters and 600yds, with the erratic pointed bullets.
Results; Normal bullets grouped at 0.312, 0.750 & 0.812
Pointed bullets grouped at 1.560, 1.375 & 2.25
The pointed bullets also had flyers which I obviously did not count as groups.
My conclusion is that my pointed bullet process is messed up or that pointing is a pain or it is not
too friendly. If I have this much trouble getting the process correct this means another sorting type process which to me is not worth the time. I will "read the wind" to the best of my ability, I suppose you could say as the song "It is written in the wind my friend, it is written in the wind".
Could be the press distorted the bullets axis. The seating dimensions were identical with normal and pointed. So I suppose the ogive was correct. Neck dimensions were same for normal and pointed after seating. Wind was 10mph coming from my right shoulder at a left angle [to my left], kinda steady not gusty.
Please if you have any opinions on what I am doing wrong let me know.
I am not going to test at the longer ranges; 300meters and 600yds, with the erratic pointed bullets.
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.