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6mm BR velocities... 26-28' barrels

memilanuk

Gold $$ Contributor
Hello,

I apologize in advance if this has been covered elsewhere; if so please provide an applicable link and point me in the right direction.

I'm looking at adding a barrel to my Savage 10FP-LE2... currently wears a 1-10" twist .308 Win tube. I'm seriously considering a 26-28" barrel in 6mm BR for varminting and F-class type events. The two primary candidates at this point are a 27" Douglas XX from SSS, or a 28" Pac-Nor SS Super Match,about $80 more in pre-threaded/chambered configuration).

What kind of realistic velocities are people getting from these barrel lengths? Bullets I'm looking at using are the 87gr V-Max and either a Lapua 105gr Scenar or a Sierra 107gr MK.

Thanks,

Monte
 
Did you read last week's Gun of the Week? It's a Savage Pac-Nor project:

http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek036.html

Varget, IMR 4895, N150, Norma 203B, RL 15, will all give you velocities in the 2870-2920 range with a std. case. Some guys are getting better velocities, but I think 2900 is realistic.

We shoot at about 2900 fps with a 27" Pac-Nor and 105 Scenars. We've had them up to 2950, but that was tough on brass. With a 28" barrel, I think you can get 2930 or so. The Savage firing pin will crater the primers unless you bush the firing pin, but it does that even at low pressures. Use the CCI primers and you'll be OK. What you're seeing is primer flow into the oversize FP hole.

If you do a Savage with Pac-Nor, don't let them get lazy and give you a Savage Varmint contour. It's too light. Specify something like a #7 contour,1.25" to .95" at the muzzle). The can turn down the contour at the shank to fit the barrel nut.
 
Actually I did read that, but the last day or so has been a little ugly,car wreck, probably rearranged the grey matter). Must have missed the velocity, or the barrel length involved.

I was just coming back here to edit my earlier post w/ regards to asking about bushing the bolt on a Savage... probably a silly question here, but would switching from CCI 450's to CCI 41's,mil-spec harder/thicker cup magnum small-rifle primer) help or hurt?

There does seem to be a pretty wide spread of velocities reported, from people claiming 2900+ from a 26" to people reporting low 2800's from a 30"; hence my question directly at a specific barrel length/setup. I'll re-read that article again. I noticed the bit about the barrel being a non-standard contour... unfortunately it was kind of hard from the pictures to really get a decent look at it in profile. Any chance of getting the owner to maybe pull the barreled action from the stock and take a couple pics, perhaps alongside a factory contour barrel? FWIW, I've been pretty happy w/ the factory barrel so far,after it was FF treated). Any idea on how much if any extra that special contour cost? Also looks like it could be a problem w/ my SSS Varmint/Tactical stock, as far as having to relieve the barrel channel to accomodate the 'bulge'

Thanks,

Monte
 
28" Pac-Nor SS SM, 29.2 Varget, CCI 450, 107SMK @ 2815fps

Primers are somewhat flattened and flowing into the firing pin hole.
 
Lynn,

Thanks for the detailed reply. It is good to have some heads up about the narrow sweet spots. Does this cartridge respond well to ladder testing such as the Optimal Charge Weight or Incremental Load development methods? For a variety of reasons I've had to shoot my 'ladders' @ 100yds w/ my .308 and then use a target analysis program to plot the vertical centers to find the plateaus... but I'll be darned if it hasn't worked pretty doggone well so far. Put me in the ball park and then I took it from there w/ fine-tuning seating depth, etc.

Thanks,

Monte
 
Milanuk,

Lynn knows his 6BRs as well as anyone on this board, but let me just add a different perspective. My gun with a 3-groove Pac-Nor has shot bugholes at 2720 fps and 2940 fps and many places in between. It has shot bugholes with three different powders, and with bullets seated .022" jam and .010" jump. This is with CCI450s and Varget, IMR 4895, and Norma 203B. Haven't tried H4895 yet, but the IMR Version has a slightly longer pressure curve and QuickLoad predicts it is better for the 6BR.

As to narrow tuning points what I HAVE observed is that very small variations in load and seating depth can make big differences in velocity! I agree with working in 0.2gr increments as you near your pressure max--but mainly so you don't go too hot.

Regarding those load methods, particularly OCW, I don't think you'll find them that useful. The 6BR is so accurate, with so little vertical,with good bullets) that what you really want is low ES/SD for long range. For that, leave the flash holes alone and concentrate on very consistent neck tension. Honestly, I can pretty much load any velocity from min to max and the gun will shoot as well as I can hold-- 0.2 moa for five, high Ones for three.

Savage_Targetx350.jpg


This target shows three-shot groups with nine different loads,from 30.2 to 30.8) using two different powders,Varget, IMR 4895) and Scenar 105s. Honestly, what little vertical is in there is probably the shooter. And my Norma 203B testing is pretty much the same. Shot well from very light loads to brass-trashing pressures. John Brewer recently tested some Scenar 105s I sent him. He just loaded five into the lands, and five jumped about .012" and both ended up with < 1/2" vertical at 300 yards with his "starting" load.

So, I think with a good barrel, the 6BR may be a lot less fussy than Lynn suggests, though I agree with him 100% that testing at 300 yards may reveal that a .1gr difference may indeed separate a "good" load from a great load.

But it may be overkill to spend a huge amount of time to find the "perfect" load because a 15-degree change in ambient temperatures is going to raise/lower your case pressure by a LOT, even with Varget.

Jim Borden says with a good 6PPC there is about a 100fps accuracy window. I think that concept applies to the 6BR, though it may be more like about 60 fps. And of course that depends on the bullet and the barrel.

Regarding velocity variations there are many reasons for this. Lynn correctly pointed out that Chrons can be inconsistent. Henry Childs did a test with two Oehlers and one shooting Chrony in-line and the Shooting Chrony gave numbers that were > 40 fps higher than the Oehlers.

Then you've got these variables,rough estimates of induced variation):

1. Primer Choice: +/- 25 fps
2. Barrel friction and land configuration: +/- 50-70 fps
3. Moly vs. Naked Bullet: + 30-60 fps
4. Seating depth: +/- 10-60 fps,assuming same charge)
5. Tight bore vs. "open" bore: +/- 50-70 fps
6. Chrony variation: +/- 10-50 fps
7. Short Bearing surface bullet vs. long bearing surface,of same weight): +/- 50 fps
8. Twist rate,1:10 vs 1:8): +/- 20-40 fps
9. Ambient temps and sun vs. shade: +/- 10-60 fps, depending on powder.

Obviously you can see how it is easy to get different max Velocities even with two 6BRs with 28" barrels, and even with the same brand chrons.

What I would do to start, is go .005"-.010" into the lands and find the Varget load that runs about 2850 fps. That should be a very accurate node that yield good brass life. Then work up in 0.2" grain increments and see if your groups shrink with velocity. Monitor the ES/SD along the way.

When you find a load at 2850+ that has good ES/SD, nice tight clusters, low vertical at 300 yards, and VERY IMPORTANT, doesn't abuse the brass, then you're good to go.

Honestly, after 4 weekends of load testing, I've never found anything better than 30.4 Varget, .010" into the lands which was the second "recipe" I tried. But 30.2 Varget jumped .005" shot just as well, with equal ES, as did 30.2 IMR 4895, and 30.3 Norma 203B,the latter two loads jammed .010").

I'm not saying you won't find a "perfect" recipe. But you may find there are a dozen really good recipes that shoot better than you can hold. I have little doubt that when I get around to trying VV N150 and RL15, those powders will probably shoot bugholes as well. And I bet that would apply to you, assuming you've got a good barrel and a good bedding job on that rifle.

There is a reason the 6BR cartridge "owns" the 300m game and that shooters can and do win using factory ammo. The brass is really good, the bullets are really good, and the case runs near 100% load density with many different quality powders. FYI, the factory ammo is running about 2800 with naked bullets: http://www.6mmbr.com/factoryammo.html

Norma uses 203B in their factory ammo. Lapua won't tell us, but I bet it's N540 or N150 or something very similar.
 
Yo,

Thanks for the tips on the loading... definitely worth a cut-n-paste to my collection of notes on this cartridge.

Any chance on getting some more pics/details on that barrel profile on the Savage?

Thanks,

Monte
 
I have a 28" Krieger 1-10" twist, and I am ave. about 3000 FPS with the 87 grain V-max. I am using Varget powder, and Federal 205m primers. I haven't pierced a primer yet. I am using a Rem. 700 action with a Piercision replacement bolt assembly from Sinclair Intl. I believe this assembly creates less inertia than the factory, that is why I am not having any problems. I shot a five shot group @ 200 yards this last weekend that measured .297", with the 87 v-max.
 

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