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6.8 replacing 556 and 308?

Raythemanroe

Bullet Whisperer
Link:

Quote: "Late last year it was decided that the United States army would be ditching the traditional 5.56x45mm NATO and 7.62x51mm NATO rounds for an entirely new caliber in the form of the 6.8mm.

While we don’t know much about the 6.8mm so far, we do know that it is designed as a compromise between the virtues of both the 5.56 and 7.62 rounds. There are big concerns among Army officials that the 5.56 round will not be strong enough to penetrate the body armor worn by soldiers in the Russian Army."

FULL STORY: https://gunnewsdaily.com/us-army-new-service-caliber/

Ray
 
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What is New about this ? Seems to be just another 6.8 SPC which I have and like. Recoil is not much more that the standard 5.56, so that should not be a problem.
 
What is New about this ? Seems to be just another 6.8 SPC which I have and like. Recoil is not much more that the standard 5.56, so that should not be a problem.
Looks like they are looking to give a new contract for a new weapon system to support it that is configured like the A4

Ray
 
6.8 is what a .277? Something like that, pretty much a .270... I think most military brass is steel correct? Haven't heard any data

Ray

Most military brass is brass, US anyway. The smallest common round I'm aware of that uses steel cased ammunition is the 25mm used in the M242 / Mk38.

In the 17 years that I've been in it seems like every 3-4 years there is talk about a new caliber, or a new replacement rifle, and it always ends up with millions being spent and then the project being cancelled. I am very skeptical that anything is going to come of this. One of the articles I found stated that the plan is to purchase 100,000 of these rifles (between SAW and the M4 replacements), so we aren't even talking about outfitting every soldier with one.

Another good read:
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/...cs-will-make-soldiers-marines-a-lot-deadlier/
 
Heck, why not a .275 Ross short? And require all threaded pcs to be 14.47 tpi ?!

6mm, 6.5mm or 7mm ! ! ! !

Sheesh, I get so tired of that oddball bore diameter. Yes, Oddball. Not nearly the projectile choice of anything either side of it. My cuzzins have a 32 Win in a 94 lever that is as capable as its 30-30 bro but not more capable and with the handicap of being an oddball.
Rant off.
 
I am a veteran and after I was medically retired I carried ARs for work both domestically as well as overseas. I spent a lot of time reading and studying why we are seeing the current failures of the AR platform. I also felt I have a pretty good idea why the problems started to arise when they did. The reduced effectiveness of the AR platform started when the Department of Defense chose to use shortened barrels with a 7 twist.

The main wounding mechanism of the 5.56, both 62g and the 55g, is fragmentation. And it is generally accepted that fragmentation occurs at or above 2,600 fps. But in order to fragment the bullet must first tumble but with the 7 twist barrel the bullets are now more stable resulting in less of a chance of the bullet tumbling. Couple that with reduced velocity of the 14.5" barrel and it is a perfect situation for failure.

The Department of Defense picked the worst of both worlds. They reduced barrel length which reduced the possibility of velocity induced fragmentation. Couple that with a faster twist reducing the chance for the bullet to tumble in the first place.

The original iteration of the AR15/M16 used a 20" barrel with 12 twist rifling and the 55g bullets they shot were barely stable with a SG of 1.42. This meant that when it hit anything the bullet would almost immediately tumble. The velocity was somewhere above 3,100 fps and with the added velocity from being fired from a 20" barrel they would reliably fragment at farther distances. This is why it was so effective in Vietnam despite the malfunctions induced by design and powder changes. Compare the wounds from a Vietnam era AR to wounds from a modern AR and the difference will be obvious. Not saying the current ARs are not lethal, just saying they are no where near as lethal, especially at distance, as the earlier versions.

Most of our active military carry M4s with a 7 twist barrel that is 14.5" long. The velocity of the 62g M855 out of a 14.5" barrel is ~2,900 fps. When the minimum fragmentation velocity is ~2,600 fps this means that the bullet will not reliably fragment past 100 yards because past 100 yards the velocity drops below the 2,600 fps threshold. This is why we are hearing of all the problems overseas because most engagements are well beyond that distance. And when you couple the reduced velocity with the added stability of a 7 twist barrel you end up with 22lr type wounds.

The Marines use a 20" barrel. The velocity of M855 out of a 20" barrel is ~3,100 fps. That extends the range for fragmentation to at least 150 yards. Not a lot but this is why I feel you hear more Army and less Marines complaining about performance of the rifles.

The reason why the 77 grain bullets increase performance is because they reduce the stability of the bullet, resulting in tumbling and possibly fragmentation, as well as carry the energy for a longer distance because of the added weight.

Another reason for failure is the thinness of the typical Afghan. Even under the perfect conditions most bullets will not begin to tumble inside the body of a Afghan male because of how thin they are.

If I were in charge I would do away with the 5.56 altogether. But if I had to keep the 5.56 the 7 twist barrels would be replaced with a 9 twist. 9 twist will generally stabilize bullets up to 77 grains, at least far enough to reliably engage targets at typicaly engagement ranges. I would also increase the barrel length for the typical soldier from 14.5" to at least 18". I would also increase the projectile weight from 62 to at least 69g. But if I did not have to keep the 5.56 I would go to the 6x35 KAC which is basically a 221 Fireball shooting a heavier, higher BC 6mm bullet. I am actually in the process of building a bolt gun and will likely do an AR in the 6x35.

Here is a VERY good read on the subject.
http://www.mlefiaa.org/files/ERPR/Terminal_Ballistic_Performance.pdf
 
Sounds like a change of bullet would be the easiest thing to do. Maybe a 60gr soft point. Get the lawyers involved and call them something like ATAR rounds. You know Anti-Terrorist ammunition.

To defeat soviet (russian federation) body armor just switch to AP ammo.

I also do not see this going any where. Spend lots of cash and field nothing. I can see the ARMY saying yes but the bean counters saying no.
 
First and foremost, all of these discussions usually attempt to boil down the ballistic advantages or disadvantages of each system or cartridge.

These forays into creating new weapons and cartridge programs have become de rigueur for each branch of the military as well as the entire military complex in order to gain huge increases in BUDGETS which will run these increases through the process for several years, often without conclusion or change. Our military especially, has never been concerned about fielding the proper (best) weapon and ammunition for each particular theater. Rather, like all other manufacturing in the U.S., (automotive comes to mind...) they apply a band-aid fix or repair and move on. The attention is on the 'fix' not make it better. Ostensibly, the switch to the shorter barrels on the M4 was to ease the transition of in and out of the battlefield vehicles.

I have no intention on arguing the ballistics of any of this because the real work is taking place behind the scenes and won't see the light of day. Like a defensive move on the battlefield, this is a smoke screen and distraction. It's still really all about the money.
 
I thought I had read somewhere that the new round had a steel base and was nearly a 270 win ballistically!
The 6.8 spc is based of the 30 Remington cartridge. Sits somewhere between the .223 and 7.62x39. It's a 43mm long case so a bit longer than the 39mm case offered in the 7.62. Yes it uses the same bullets as the .270 win could use but typically loaded much lighter weight bullets. Recoil would be more than the .223 but less than the 7.62x39. Definitely less than the .270 Winchester. Performance isn't even close to the 270 win. It's like comparing the 7.62x39( Mini 30) round to the 30-06. Just not in the same neighborhood. I've shot some 6.8 spc in the AR platform and they are a very good shooting round. Plenty for deer size game out to 200-300 yards. It's slowly gaining popularity for that use in ARs. Not sure I'd put it in front of the 308 or even the 223 in the Arm's of military troops. The 223 is much flatter in a fast twist AR using mid to heavier bullets and not even close to the 308 for medium weight long range rifle. Either way, it is what it is. The .260 should have replaced the 308 years ago and undoubtedly this 6.8 replacement wouldn't be a discussion. Kinda surprised the 6.5 CM hasn't slid in on a government contract yet.
 
It's all about weight. Planes can only carry so much weight. That's one of the reasons the 5.56 is so popular. They may get some weapons of a different caliber, but I really don't think they will change everything. Been wrong before.
 
.223/308/300WM/338LM/50BMG...I think the US military has most scenarios covered not to mention the largest arms artillery. Too me, to say the 6.8 will cover what both the 223 and 308 does combined, is rather unrealistic. The 223 has a purpose as does the 308. If the 6.8 does in fact replace them both, I believe there will be an additional cartridge to fill the void of the 308. IMO, the 6.8 cannot do what the 308 has done in the history of our military.
 
You guys are not even close for the most part. Too much misinterpretation.

My opinion they have plenty of data on 6.5CM and .260 Rem. They should've stayed with 6.5mm if they truly want to look at a new round to become the new main battle rifle round.

We're looking at stuff we looked at back in the 30's, 40's and 50's again.
 
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The 6.8 spc is based of the 30 Remington cartridge. Sits somewhere between the .223 and 7.62x39. It's a 43mm long case so a bit longer than the 39mm case offered in the 7.62. Yes it uses the same bullets as the .270 win could use but typically loaded much lighter weight bullets. Recoil would be more than the .223 but less than the 7.62x39. Definitely less than the .270 Winchester. Performance isn't even close to the 270 win. It's like comparing the 7.62x39( Mini 30) round to the 30-06. Just not in the same neighborhood. I've shot some 6.8 spc in the AR platform and they are a very good shooting round. Plenty for deer size game out to 200-300 yards. It's slowly gaining popularity for that use in ARs. Not sure I'd put it in front of the 308 or even the 223 in the Arm's of military troops. The 223 is much flatter in a fast twist AR using mid to heavier bullets and not even close to the 308 for medium weight long range rifle. Either way, it is what it is. The .260 should have replaced the 308 years ago and undoubtedly this 6.8 replacement wouldn't be a discussion. Kinda surprised the 6.5 CM hasn't slid in on a government contract yet.
They ARE NOT USING THE 6.8SPC.
 

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