Looking at the burn rate charts, I thought the IMR 4007 SSC looked promising in the 6.5 x 47 Lapua. Has anyone tried it yet?
Eric
Eric
6.5x47 Lapua & IMR 4007 SSC
- Thread starter ericskennard
- Start date
Eric,
I've tried IMR-4007ssc in .223 Rem / 90 Berger VLD alongside N550 and Re17 at the slow end of the powder burning ranges. It gave considerably higher MVs than Re17 in this application before excess pressure signs appeared, but not as high as N550. So it might well suit 6.5X47L this cartridge also liking powders in the N550 / Re17 class.
It's quite bulky despite the small-cut format and that may be its limitation in smaller cases. I was quite impressed in heavy bullet .223, but didn't take it further despite groups and MVs being good as it produced larger MV spreads than I would accept with top charges and it didn't quite match up to the results that we've both seen with VarGet and Re15. I'm going to try it next in .308 Win with 208/210gn bullets in small primer Lapua 'Palma' brass as an alternative to Re17 and N550 again, likewise Hodgdon H414 that is proving surprisingly promising so far.
Incidentally, off topic but something I know you're very much into, I switched to VarGet this season in .223/90 now that I can get it again and have simply accepted the loss of 60 or 70 fps in exchange for temperature stability. I've also been given a suggestion re Whidden pointing die settings that works so far with the 90 VLDs - not tried it on any other bullet / calibre yet. Measure the length of the unpointed bullet, start pointing and adjusting the die / insert down in small steps (I'm using 5s on the Redding Ultra die head), and measure the length after each step. Keep on increasing the insert travel / pressure while the bullet length grows, stop or go back slightly as soon as growth stops. If you keep on adjusting the pointing insert down, you find that the pointed bullet then becomes shorter which suggests the jacket is now being distorted.
Because of variations in bullet lengths you have to do it on several examples during the setting-up process. The 90 VLDs grow by a full 0.002" during pointing using this method with the #1 (VLD) insert. There is enough difference between the bullet nose lengths / shapes that you get variance here, and the answer is either to trim every bullet tip back beforehand (which would work if the variance is purely in length, but not if it's shape-related methinks) or (what I'm doing) to inspect each pointed meplat with the Mk1 eyeball and segregate them into two batches, small and not so small. (Your optical comparator would be useful here, but they seem to split pretty well into two obvious sizes post-pointing in the ratio of 3-1 'small' to 'large'.)
I've tried IMR-4007ssc in .223 Rem / 90 Berger VLD alongside N550 and Re17 at the slow end of the powder burning ranges. It gave considerably higher MVs than Re17 in this application before excess pressure signs appeared, but not as high as N550. So it might well suit 6.5X47L this cartridge also liking powders in the N550 / Re17 class.
It's quite bulky despite the small-cut format and that may be its limitation in smaller cases. I was quite impressed in heavy bullet .223, but didn't take it further despite groups and MVs being good as it produced larger MV spreads than I would accept with top charges and it didn't quite match up to the results that we've both seen with VarGet and Re15. I'm going to try it next in .308 Win with 208/210gn bullets in small primer Lapua 'Palma' brass as an alternative to Re17 and N550 again, likewise Hodgdon H414 that is proving surprisingly promising so far.
Incidentally, off topic but something I know you're very much into, I switched to VarGet this season in .223/90 now that I can get it again and have simply accepted the loss of 60 or 70 fps in exchange for temperature stability. I've also been given a suggestion re Whidden pointing die settings that works so far with the 90 VLDs - not tried it on any other bullet / calibre yet. Measure the length of the unpointed bullet, start pointing and adjusting the die / insert down in small steps (I'm using 5s on the Redding Ultra die head), and measure the length after each step. Keep on increasing the insert travel / pressure while the bullet length grows, stop or go back slightly as soon as growth stops. If you keep on adjusting the pointing insert down, you find that the pointed bullet then becomes shorter which suggests the jacket is now being distorted.
Because of variations in bullet lengths you have to do it on several examples during the setting-up process. The 90 VLDs grow by a full 0.002" during pointing using this method with the #1 (VLD) insert. There is enough difference between the bullet nose lengths / shapes that you get variance here, and the answer is either to trim every bullet tip back beforehand (which would work if the variance is purely in length, but not if it's shape-related methinks) or (what I'm doing) to inspect each pointed meplat with the Mk1 eyeball and segregate them into two batches, small and not so small. (Your optical comparator would be useful here, but they seem to split pretty well into two obvious sizes post-pointing in the ratio of 3-1 'small' to 'large'.)
Dave thanks for the reply. I don't have Quickload. Yes I will be using the 123 Scenar or the Berger 130 VLD whichever works better.
Did Quickload suggest an amount? I have been told that 41 grains of 4350 works really well. Of course I didn't have any so I ordered some. It is interesting that many are trying slower powders than Varget or N140 with this round.
Did Quickload suggest an amount? I have been told that 41 grains of 4350 works really well. Of course I didn't have any so I ordered some. It is interesting that many are trying slower powders than Varget or N140 with this round.
Hi Laurie, good to hear from you. I have not heard of that pointing method before. I will take a look at it with the next batch of bullets I point. I had not measured the OAL before/during/after pointing. It would be interesting to see how that fits into the way I was doing them.
Have you any loads for the 6.5 x 47? I know that it is being used a lot in Europe. Some of us are just slow to catch on.
Keep shooting that .223 with the Berger 90s. We may even convince Bryan Litz that they work!
Eric
Have you any loads for the 6.5 x 47? I know that it is being used a lot in Europe. Some of us are just slow to catch on.
Keep shooting that .223 with the Berger 90s. We may even convince Bryan Litz that they work!
Eric
Eric,
not a lot to date, just some starting efforts with Viht N150 and Re15. I had my first F/TR rifle, an FN Special Police Rifle rebarrelled to 6.5X47L with a 30" 5R Bartlein getting on for 2 years ago. It was a disaster as the FN / Winchester firing pin and bolt face saw heavy primer extrusion with starting loads and piercing a grain or two up on those. Unlike you we don't have any equivalent to Gre-Tan Engineering doing bushing jobs, so the rifle has done nothing for the last 18 months or so.
So .... as of about three weeks ago, the FN has been rechambered to .260 Rem to which it's much better suited with that cartridge's LR primer. Just starting now on load development for it. Meanwhile, I'm shooting my .308 Win Barnard / Broughton / Eliseo pre-223R F/TR tubegun in F-Open form at the moment in club competitions and also using it for a heavy programme of load development work with heavy bullets up to 210gn plus Lapua small primer brass. Once that's completed this autumn, it will get a simple rebarrel to 6.5X47L, a cartridge it should be very well suited to for continued use as an F Open club comp rifle. So, I will be doing a lot of playing with the cartridge, but not until the winter / new year.
Yes, there are a fair few 6.5X47Ls around over here. Hardly any in F Class as you might think, or not at least where I shoot. It's become very popular for tactical / sniper / McQueens type competitions and often in dual-purpose range / hunting rifles as the cartridge is very well suited to British Muntjac, Roe, Fallow etc deer. Most people I speak to seem to use 120 - 130gn bullets with Viht N150/N550, Re15 or H4350 according to taste. The 123gn Scenar is probably the most widely used match bullet here and generally gives good results. However, an old friend who emigrated to New Zealand a few years back and is doing very well in long-range F down there with 6.5X47L gets impressive MVs and match results with 140s, initially the 139 Scenar, now the Berger 140gn VLD.
Here's a couple of threads on 6.5X47L loads from the Stalkers Directory the UK's main deerstalking (hunting to you) forum. Not everybody on this forum is convinced about this cartridge - a lot of people write it off as a poor imitation of the .260 Rem, but it does have its supporters.
http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/showthread.php?26043-6.5x47-load-development&highlight=6.5X47
http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/showthread.php?25142-6.5-x-47-lapua-users-hunting-specific&highlight=6.5X47
Like you, I tend to be five years behind everybody else - I'm just getting into the six-point-fives as everybody else here in target shooting moves to the sevens. I'll eventually end up playing with (small to large): 6.5X47L, 6.5mm Hornady Creedmoor, .260 Rem, 6.5X55mm, and 6.5-284 Norma.
good shooting,
Laurie
[quote author=Laurie
Like you, I tend to be five years behind everybody else - I'm just getting into the six-point-fives as everybody else here in target shooting moves to the sevens. I'll eventually end up playing with (small to large): 6.5X47L, 6.5mm Hornady Creedmoor, .260 Rem, 6.5X55mm, and 6.5-284 Norma.
good shooting,
Laurie
[/quote]
Sounds like you are moving in the wrong direction, Laurie. Why not a .20 or even .17. One of my Williamsport BR friends has been experimenting with a .17 for 1000 yards. The problem maybe what to call a thing like that given that "Mouse Gun" is already taken.
Like you, I tend to be five years behind everybody else - I'm just getting into the six-point-fives as everybody else here in target shooting moves to the sevens. I'll eventually end up playing with (small to large): 6.5X47L, 6.5mm Hornady Creedmoor, .260 Rem, 6.5X55mm, and 6.5-284 Norma.
good shooting,
Laurie
[/quote]
Sounds like you are moving in the wrong direction, Laurie. Why not a .20 or even .17. One of my Williamsport BR friends has been experimenting with a .17 for 1000 yards. The problem maybe what to call a thing like that given that "Mouse Gun" is already taken.
Hi Tony,
good to hear from you!
I'm not completely innocent with regard to the twenties (won the UKBRA 100yd factory sporter bench rest championship in 2009 with an out of the box .204 Ruger Savage 12 LRPV - a great rifle). I also have a journalistic project on the go for the online TargetShooter magazine currently that takes what started as a cheap 20" barrel .223R Remington 700 SPS Tactical and shows how you can bankrupt yourself in four easy stages with tune-ups, aftermarket tactical stocks, big bolt knobs etc etc. The final stage (straw?) will be a Bartlein 1-8" twist .20 cal barrel to turn it into a .20 Tactical using Berger 55s.
However with their 0.195 G7 BC, I note that even at 3,000 fps MV which seems improbable (!!!!) they're subsonic at 1,000yd. What we need Messrs Stecker and Litz are 70gn twenties with decent BCs that let itinerant Scottish dolts develop the .204WSM and assault the shooting equivalent of William Shatner's Final Frontier and boldly go where no idiot has gone before (nor should even consider going)! As to seventeens ..... no, don't even think of going there! (My nearly 62yr old spine is too stiff for all the bending required to pick up the itsy bitsy bullets dropped during seating and that roll into corners or onto a cluttered loading bench.)
Of course ..... there is the sabot option. The long-range F Class equivalent of the 120mm US Army M829 tank round would be a .50 BMG case firing a fifty cal sabot-round that incorporates a 20-cal depleted uranium fin-stabilised bullet around three inches long and weighing 250 (?) grains. G7 BC of maybe 2 or 3, 4,050-5,000 fps MV - yippee, I'd never bother looking at a wind flag again!
A name for a .17 or .20 F Class rifle? How about flea gun?
Eric .... sorry about this in a thread about 6.5X47L, an eminently sane proposition. I'll ask my friend Richard Huby in NZ what loads he uses. (He may read this thread anyway and respond.)
good to hear from you!
I'm not completely innocent with regard to the twenties (won the UKBRA 100yd factory sporter bench rest championship in 2009 with an out of the box .204 Ruger Savage 12 LRPV - a great rifle). I also have a journalistic project on the go for the online TargetShooter magazine currently that takes what started as a cheap 20" barrel .223R Remington 700 SPS Tactical and shows how you can bankrupt yourself in four easy stages with tune-ups, aftermarket tactical stocks, big bolt knobs etc etc. The final stage (straw?) will be a Bartlein 1-8" twist .20 cal barrel to turn it into a .20 Tactical using Berger 55s.
However with their 0.195 G7 BC, I note that even at 3,000 fps MV which seems improbable (!!!!) they're subsonic at 1,000yd. What we need Messrs Stecker and Litz are 70gn twenties with decent BCs that let itinerant Scottish dolts develop the .204WSM and assault the shooting equivalent of William Shatner's Final Frontier and boldly go where no idiot has gone before (nor should even consider going)! As to seventeens ..... no, don't even think of going there! (My nearly 62yr old spine is too stiff for all the bending required to pick up the itsy bitsy bullets dropped during seating and that roll into corners or onto a cluttered loading bench.)
Of course ..... there is the sabot option. The long-range F Class equivalent of the 120mm US Army M829 tank round would be a .50 BMG case firing a fifty cal sabot-round that incorporates a 20-cal depleted uranium fin-stabilised bullet around three inches long and weighing 250 (?) grains. G7 BC of maybe 2 or 3, 4,050-5,000 fps MV - yippee, I'd never bother looking at a wind flag again!
A name for a .17 or .20 F Class rifle? How about flea gun?
Eric .... sorry about this in a thread about 6.5X47L, an eminently sane proposition. I'll ask my friend Richard Huby in NZ what loads he uses. (He may read this thread anyway and respond.)
smoking-brass
shoot straight....shoot often
Eric I use imr 4007 ssc in my 7-08 and it works very well...I know the 6.5x47 is using powders that work well in the 7-08. I would give it a try for sure...don't be afraid to push it... it really like's to be pushed...best groups with 140 bergers. Good luck
Vince
Vince
Eric,
I've been loading 4007SSC with 123s in a 26" Krieger bbl'd tactical 6.5x47. It does well with either CCI 450s or Wolf SRM primers. I don't really know where max charge is, but have been loading 40.5-40.9grs. with Hornady, Lapua, & Sierra 123s, all HBN coated. Velocities run from 2890-2959fps. Accuracy has been fine with all three brands of 123s.
Should probably try 4007 with 130VLDs, but have gotten excellent vel. & accuracy using RL17, so there's little motivation to experiment.
I've been loading 4007SSC with 123s in a 26" Krieger bbl'd tactical 6.5x47. It does well with either CCI 450s or Wolf SRM primers. I don't really know where max charge is, but have been loading 40.5-40.9grs. with Hornady, Lapua, & Sierra 123s, all HBN coated. Velocities run from 2890-2959fps. Accuracy has been fine with all three brands of 123s.
Should probably try 4007 with 130VLDs, but have gotten excellent vel. & accuracy using RL17, so there's little motivation to experiment.
Keith Glasscock
Gold $$ Contributor
How is the temperature stability with 4007? I, like Laurie would like to experiment with it for heavy bullets in the 308.
Keith
Keith
From what I've seen so far, IMR4007SSC isn't terribly sensitive to temp changes. However, the short description of this powder in Hodgdon's latest Basic Reloading Manual says nothing about its temp. sensitivity, while they do mention that IMR8208XBR is "totally insensitive to changes in temperature".
Since Hodgdon is in business to sell powder, and since one of the Extreme powders' big selling points is stable performance in a wide range of temps, I'd think they'd at least mention it if 4007 has similar sensitivity charactoristics.
Since Hodgdon is in business to sell powder, and since one of the Extreme powders' big selling points is stable performance in a wide range of temps, I'd think they'd at least mention it if 4007 has similar sensitivity charactoristics.
Dennis and Dave, Thanks so much. That will give me a good starting place. The local guys are using Varget. Some of the Texas guys are using H4350. I thought the 4007 SSC might work as it is in between.
Do you think the XBR 8208 is too fast for this round?
Do you think the XBR 8208 is too fast for this round?
I've been shooting N-140 and N-150 with the 123SMK's. Identical powder charges with either powder with a slight velocity advantage going to the N-150. With 130 JLK bullets, it seems to like RL-15 but the ES is always higher. I had my reamer cut with a .105 freebore because I think this case is on the small side to drive 140 class bullets to their potential. Those of you that are shooting the 4007ssc or N-550, what kind of velocities are you getting?
Thanks,
Lloyd
Thanks,
Lloyd
Eric, I'd expect 8208 to be too fast for best results in the 6.5x47. I've used N150 with lighter bullets (85gr) at 200yds in across-the-course matches, then switch to N160 or RL17 with all the heavier bullets. RS Hunter is also pretty darned good; its burning rate is very close to 4350. I feel that the little 6.5 is a lot like larger 6.5mm ctgs in its preference for slower powders.
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