I was wondering if someone can offer up some advice with the 6.5x47.i have been fireforming new lapua brass and berger 130 gr. bullets.using re-15 and h4350 and br4 primers all rounds .010' jammed.i started with re-15 3 rounds of each starting with 36.5,37,37.5 of re-15. the weather was around 50 deg. all loads were chronographed with a ced mII chrony.i no sooner got started when i had signs of pressure sticky bolt and extractor marks,this was with 37 grs. and velocity of only 2750 avg. out of a 29' pac-nor 1-8 twist barrel.accuracy was very good avg. .3. es was around 22. i moved to the h4350. starting with 38 grs went up by .5 to 40.5. here too i showed pressure signs early on around 40 grs. es was lower at 12 but velocity was also down around 2825 avg.is lapua brass softer than most?? i thought with a 29' barrel i should break 2900 FPS.i also loaded the same charges with bullets seated back .040' off the lands as mentioned on bergers web site the velocity dropped on avg. 50 fps. across the board with both powders.h4350 does have the lowest ES of 5 with 40.2Grs seated .010' jammed oal 2.727' and group size of .2 will velocity increase as barrel breaks in? all in all i am very pleased with the accuracy it is the velocity that is dissapointing.this is going to be my 'F' class rifle. update i was out again this morning with the same loads the onlt variable was it much 20 deg. cooler. now i have no pressure signs of any kind.i don't want ramble on but i am confused about the lack of signs.i thought h4350 was NOT temp. sensitive.could it be the lapua brass.i plan to go out this friday only this time i will load with once fired brass to see if anything changes.
6.5x47 early pressure signs
- Thread starter 300ultramag
- Start date
It's not the brass... What type of action are you using?
the rifle is a rem700 blue printed,bolt face squared, bushed the firing pin.kiff no turn neck.the barrel is a pac-nor 1-8 twist 3 groove cut at 29'.i weighed each charge on a pact digital scale and checked against my old rcbs 10-10.i did no real case prep.i do have .062' flash hole reamer coming from sinclair,and i did not turn any necks.i am anxious to see if using once fired brass will show any pressure signs.like i mentioned earlier accuracy is good at 100 yrds. i will try these same loads at 200 yrds. friday.the velocity is what puzzles me.i know each gun is different but with a 29' pipe i should easily reach 2900 fps
I have a 6.5x47L on a trued Rem 700, also. I am using a 26' McGowen barrel with a 1:8 twist. I was also dissapointed by velocity with the 130gr Bergers. The best I can manage is 2880fps with 40.3grs of H4350. I am getting some pressure signs with this. 37grs of RL15 is also top end if I remember correctly. As much as I can gather, this round runs at the top end constantly. It seems to be a high pressure cartridge with people pushing it to get 2850 - 2900fps with 130gr bullets.
I now use 123gr Scenars over 36.6grs of Varget. It is the most accurate load in my gun and just under 2900fps, but without pressure. The bullet has a comparable BC to the 130gr Berger and the difference seems to be .3 mils or 1moa at 800m and no pressure.
I would only consider going back to the 130gr bullets using the 130JLK with its significantly higher BC,.620..?). The other thing I did not like about the 130gr VLDs is they seemed harder to tune in regerds to seating depth. The Scenars are easy and if you can locate a master dealer, MUCH CHEAPER!
I now use 123gr Scenars over 36.6grs of Varget. It is the most accurate load in my gun and just under 2900fps, but without pressure. The bullet has a comparable BC to the 130gr Berger and the difference seems to be .3 mils or 1moa at 800m and no pressure.
I would only consider going back to the 130gr bullets using the 130JLK with its significantly higher BC,.620..?). The other thing I did not like about the 130gr VLDs is they seemed harder to tune in regerds to seating depth. The Scenars are easy and if you can locate a master dealer, MUCH CHEAPER!
I'm surprised by the low velocity with pressure signs you guys are experiencing. I'm using a 30' barrel in a Barnard action and am using 42.2gr of H4350 with Berger 130 VLDs and pushing 2962fps average velocity for absolutely zero pressure signs.
I'm betting if I load 42.5grs I would be on 3000fps with the 130gr projectiles. I recently did some testing at the range and got an average of 2930fps for 41.8gr, 2945fps for 42.0gr and 2962fps for 42.2gr. These were fired thru my CED M2 in 25C temps.
Do you think the shorter barrel could account for this difference? I think the shorter barrel would mean lower velocities but not with increased pressure signs at the amount of powder your loading.
I'm betting if I load 42.5grs I would be on 3000fps with the 130gr projectiles. I recently did some testing at the range and got an average of 2930fps for 41.8gr, 2945fps for 42.0gr and 2962fps for 42.2gr. These were fired thru my CED M2 in 25C temps.
Do you think the shorter barrel could account for this difference? I think the shorter barrel would mean lower velocities but not with increased pressure signs at the amount of powder your loading.
300ultramag......
With the accuracy and low ES you are getting, you are worried about speed? Let me know if you want to sell that rig! I'll just crank up a couple minutes of elevation and whup some 6.5-284 butts and have a barrel that'll outlast theirs by 2k rounds. Accuracy wins out over speed every day.
I, like Thunder Down Under, get higher velocities with the 6.5L......~2975 with Varget and 130's. Might want to ring up your gunsmith.
With the accuracy and low ES you are getting, you are worried about speed? Let me know if you want to sell that rig! I'll just crank up a couple minutes of elevation and whup some 6.5-284 butts and have a barrel that'll outlast theirs by 2k rounds. Accuracy wins out over speed every day.
I, like Thunder Down Under, get higher velocities with the 6.5L......~2975 with Varget and 130's. Might want to ring up your gunsmith.
Longranger: Thanks for bringing me back to Earth!! it is so easy to get caught up with max. velocity.i think i will play around with fine tuning my seating depth.as a rule does accuracy suffer during fireforming??
ThunderDownUnder said:
Hey Thunder, I don't know what H4350 downunder is like, but here in the USA 41.5 grains is a compressed load. You must be using a lot of neck tension with 42.2 gr. to keep those bullets in place. With 41.7 gr. H4350x I was getting 2979fps but had to go to a .287 neck bushing to keep bullet in place.
Gary.
Gary.
Hi Gary,
I guess it also depends on how deep you seat your bullets as well as chamber size for how compressed a load will be. My chamber is reamed to take upto the 142gr projectiles. I can load 120-142gr projectiles this means when I seat the bullets 10 thou into the lands I may have more room for powder than you are set up for.
I use a .288' neck bushing in my Redding die and the load,42.2gr for the 130 VLDs)is slightly compressed. I also very lightly neck turn. I think Quickload shows 103% compression for the load. I cant hear any crunching sounds from the powder and H4350 has large granules and hence large air spaces between.
The H4350 in Australia is sold as AR2209 and manufactured by a local military supplier. Its sold to Hodgson and they relabel it as the H4350 that you are familiar with!
I guess it also depends on how deep you seat your bullets as well as chamber size for how compressed a load will be. My chamber is reamed to take upto the 142gr projectiles. I can load 120-142gr projectiles this means when I seat the bullets 10 thou into the lands I may have more room for powder than you are set up for.
I use a .288' neck bushing in my Redding die and the load,42.2gr for the 130 VLDs)is slightly compressed. I also very lightly neck turn. I think Quickload shows 103% compression for the load. I cant hear any crunching sounds from the powder and H4350 has large granules and hence large air spaces between.
The H4350 in Australia is sold as AR2209 and manufactured by a local military supplier. Its sold to Hodgson and they relabel it as the H4350 that you are familiar with!
Aussie, I initially setup using OBT,optimum barrel time) and measured velocity. The velocity for OBT with my barrel is 2920fps as this is right on the 4th node. This is achieved using 41.8gr of AR2209,H4350). I have shot this in comps out to 800yds and its accurate.AusFclass said:
I will be doing some group size measuring very soon and let you know the boring details of how it measures at 100yds. I'm doing this to fine tune bullet seating depth and will ladder test with loads out to 42.5grs.
I neck size and only body sized when initially setting up the new brass.
You cant be serious with your last question about primers falling out! There are absolutely zero pressure signs on my brass and primers. I'm hoping its most accurate at the higher velocities like 2960fps.
What can you contribute to this discussion with your loads for this cartridge?
NO I'm not serious about primers falling out!
Firstly we have to say that every rifle/ action/ barrel has its own limits and most of all preferences. i am no pro BR shooter by any stretch and i have only done initial testing at this stage but i did shoot groups at 200 and 500yds. maybe I'm just a red neck but i do not own a chronograph and sometimes i think that is a good thing.
i used berger 130s .015 into lands, lapua cases, cci primers and loaded h4350 in .5gr increments from 39 to 41.5 and also tested 41.8 gr.
i did barrel run in and initial testing at 200yds with a 5-10mph cross wind. i unexpectedly found good accuracy at my run in load of 39gr. 5 shots in .344' vert x .567' horizontal. i slowly worked up and found another node at 40.5 with 4 shots going practically through the same hole and one out to the right that i didn't measure.
i got good 1/2 MOA or a bit over with most other loads all the way up to 41.8 but the 40.5 really seemed to hummm!
so to back up my previous experiment i moved out to 500 and tested the 39, 40.5 and thought id try the 41.8 to see what happened at longer ranges.
the 39gr load went about 2.5'. the 41.8 went 3' but the 40.5 shot a nice round group of 1.63'.
i did not experience stiff bolt lift with any of the loads and the primers were not super flat but i did find a sharp edge starting to form around the firring pin and would not like to be using those loads without a bushed pin hole or custom action.
i tested the 40.5 load the first time i have shot the rifle in a comp with a borrowed rest and bags. on our championship target,.5MOA 10, 1MOA 9) at 500 posted a 95 with my first two shots being 8s as i didn't have a no wind zero or elevation settings. moved to 700 put down a 99 with my last shot low in mirage. the 41.8 load with .6 moa accuracy would probably have shot a 90-95 in my rifle.
300ultramag if you can get the accuracy that your talking about i wouldn't toast a good barrel trying to find 60fps.
Firstly we have to say that every rifle/ action/ barrel has its own limits and most of all preferences. i am no pro BR shooter by any stretch and i have only done initial testing at this stage but i did shoot groups at 200 and 500yds. maybe I'm just a red neck but i do not own a chronograph and sometimes i think that is a good thing.
i used berger 130s .015 into lands, lapua cases, cci primers and loaded h4350 in .5gr increments from 39 to 41.5 and also tested 41.8 gr.
i did barrel run in and initial testing at 200yds with a 5-10mph cross wind. i unexpectedly found good accuracy at my run in load of 39gr. 5 shots in .344' vert x .567' horizontal. i slowly worked up and found another node at 40.5 with 4 shots going practically through the same hole and one out to the right that i didn't measure.
i got good 1/2 MOA or a bit over with most other loads all the way up to 41.8 but the 40.5 really seemed to hummm!
so to back up my previous experiment i moved out to 500 and tested the 39, 40.5 and thought id try the 41.8 to see what happened at longer ranges.
the 39gr load went about 2.5'. the 41.8 went 3' but the 40.5 shot a nice round group of 1.63'.
i did not experience stiff bolt lift with any of the loads and the primers were not super flat but i did find a sharp edge starting to form around the firring pin and would not like to be using those loads without a bushed pin hole or custom action.
i tested the 40.5 load the first time i have shot the rifle in a comp with a borrowed rest and bags. on our championship target,.5MOA 10, 1MOA 9) at 500 posted a 95 with my first two shots being 8s as i didn't have a no wind zero or elevation settings. moved to 700 put down a 99 with my last shot low in mirage. the 41.8 load with .6 moa accuracy would probably have shot a 90-95 in my rifle.
300ultramag if you can get the accuracy that your talking about i wouldn't toast a good barrel trying to find 60fps.
AusFclass, Here is a 3 shot group shot at 100m with 42.0gr of H4350,AR2209)using Berger 130gr VLDs jammed 0.010'. I shot this today while doing some load testing and that load along with 41.8gr of the same powder but jumped 0.040' shot about as well as each other.
I read the Berger info on trying different seating depths and out of curiosity tried jumping 40 thou. I couldn't go any further because of load compression thru seating the bullet deeper. Even at 40 thou, 50 thou deeper than my normal load at 10 thou jam I could hear the powder crunching a little.
I read the Berger info on trying different seating depths and out of curiosity tried jumping 40 thou. I couldn't go any further because of load compression thru seating the bullet deeper. Even at 40 thou, 50 thou deeper than my normal load at 10 thou jam I could hear the powder crunching a little.
300ultramag said:
Hi Derek,
I found once fired brass improves the consistency shot to shot. What reamer did you use for your rifle? The longer chamber for 130-140gr projectiles allows a little more powder room for H4350 and probably drops the pressure a little too.
What action have you used in your rifle?
Persevere a little with it because with your barrel length 2900+fps should be easily achieved unless your action is unsuitable. RL15 might be a little too fast and H4350 slow, can you try RL17. We cant get it in Oz but I would love to try it out as it appears to have a burn rate in the middle of the 2 powders you are using.
I found once fired brass improves the consistency shot to shot. What reamer did you use for your rifle? The longer chamber for 130-140gr projectiles allows a little more powder room for H4350 and probably drops the pressure a little too.
What action have you used in your rifle?
Persevere a little with it because with your barrel length 2900+fps should be easily achieved unless your action is unsuitable. RL15 might be a little too fast and H4350 slow, can you try RL17. We cant get it in Oz but I would love to try it out as it appears to have a burn rate in the middle of the 2 powders you are using.
Well guys i have been doing some more range work,between re-15 and h4350.i have been getting a bit more velocity and lower e.s. and s.d. from h4350.was shooting at 200,300 and 500 yrds.all from the bench.the re-15 avg. velocity before any pressure signs showed up was 2775 fps at 37.4 Grs.this load does show very good potential but the es and sd were in double digit range.the h4350 at 40.2 has the lowest e.s. 5 and s.d. 8 at 2825 avg. for 10 shots.both were excellent performers the only difference on paper was the groups at 500 yrds.the h4350 load was able to put [2] five shot groups within 2.5' with a slight breeze from left to right.the re15 load of 37.4 avg 3.75' but the wind was coming up so it may not be an exact duplicated test.all were shot with virgin brass br4 primers and berger 130 vld's .005' into the lands.our 'F' class season starts this sunday so i have decided on the h4350 load of 40.2 grs.i really want to start shooting all from my harris bipod to duplicate the 'F' class position.i will experiment further with some different primers.this is a real informative post we have going,lets keep it up.on another note i am not to happy with my new 6500 tactical 4.5x30!! will be selling it soon to buy what i should have bought in the first place which is the sightron SIII 8x32.
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