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6.5mm Throat Lengths for Heavy Bullets?

My gunsmith can extend the throat to any dimension of my choosing. I am trying to decide on lengths, and was wondering what you all are doing. The best rule of thumb I have been told thus far is try to keep the true base of the bullet near the neck/shoulder junction, and that comes from a well decorated match shooter.

6.5 Creedmoor, 2.825" OAL by spec, my mag box is 2.870".
Best I can tell, 2.825"OAL will have the bullet base well below the shoulder junction.

6.5x284, 3.228" OAL by spec. Single load only.
My current barrel jams a 150gr SMK about 3.183".

Anybody care to share common lengths they are using?

Thank you.
 
My Rifle is throated with whatever dull beaver Savage used at the factory. I'm jamming a 147 ELD at about 2.845 OAL.

The throating IMO is always a tradeoff between being optimal new and leaving margin for erosion or and possible setback. If you are running a jump-tolerant bullet and have satisfied yourself to that effect, then I'd say go fairly long on the freebore. If you are running a VLD or something you've experienced a much narrower optimal OAL range, then I'd say you need to be sure you don't get carried away on long throating lest the barrel be useless prematurely.

If you've selected your ideal projectile (150smks?), then find the OAL where the bullet junction of boattail to bearing surface is exactly at the base of the neck. Then go however much shorter you want to allot for throat erosion.

Ultimately, it comes down to trading MV for barrel life. If you throat deeper, you get less useful life but higher MV for the pressure. Shallower throat, more room for erosion, but requires shorter OALs that might cause you to see pressure earlier.
 
Here's a definition of the 'ideal bullet position' from Robert Whitley's description of his 6mm / 6.5mm SLR designs.

http://6mmar.com/Super_LR.html

Note: When the term "Ideal OAL" is used, it means the junction of the boat tail and bearing surface of the bullet is forward of the junction of the neck and shoulder of the case by about .025" or so. When the term "Forward in neck but good OAL" is used it means the junction of the boat tail and bearing surface of the bullet is forward of the junction of the neck and shoulder of the case by about .040" - .070" or so (depending on the bullet involved) which is still good because the cartridge neck is .322" which means you have about .250" plus of neck still holding onto the bullet.

The 6SLR has a very long (0.322") neck giving lots of (seating) room to play with. The 6.5mm Creedmoor is better than many other off the shelf designs, but is shorter at 0.259" if I've done the sums right off a cartridge drawing.

So, it's not the base position that's critical for you, rather the bullet shank-to-tail section junction. (Assuming you're not loading flat-base bullets where it is the base that counts.) You want that point on the bullet to be just above the case neck-to-shoulder junction - as RW says, 0.025" above is a good place.

You can ascertain this two ways. The quick and dirty way is to seat a bullet gradually deeper in a sized but unprimed/uncharged case and put the same model of bullet alongside on the bench with the tips level to see where the shank/shoulder junction lies in the case and judge that ~0.025" gap by eye using calipers set at that value to give a guide. When you're there, then measure the resulting COAL and see how that matches your magazine and/or rifle chamber freebore.

The other (more scientific) way is get a drawing of the bullet - as in this drawing on Berger Bullets' website of its new 156gn EOL Hunter:

https://bergerbullets.com/new-berger-6-5mm-156-grain-eol-elite-hunter/

and see where the tail to shank junction lies - ie take the quoted OAL and subtract the tail length, 1.512 - 0.189 = 1.323" from the junction to bullet meplat (tip).

Then take that value and subtract the case-neck length. (But first measure the OAL of the case you're using - you'll need it later.)

1.323 - 0.259 = 1.064" for the Creedmoor. That amount of bullet should be visible outside of the case, but we want that 25 thou' of clearance between the two junctions so add that back in to the bullet outside of the case-mouth:

1.064 + 0.025 = 1.089"

You then take that value and add it to the case OAL. The 6.5mm Creedmoor at its maximum SAAMI length before trimming is 1.920". so let's assume your case is exactly that. Add this figure to the calculated one for the bullet to get the cartridge OAL (COAL) for that bullet seated at the optimum position in a Creedmoor case.

1.920 + 1.089 = 3.009" ........... over SAAMI max COAL but no surprise for this very long / heavy bullet.

You then have to reconcile this to the rifle chamber and / or the maximum COAL that the magazine will feed reliably.

............ or if you've settled on this model of bullet and are willing to single-load it, you make up an inert round, take it to your gunsmith and get him to ream the throat / leade so that the bullet just kisses the lands (or is 20 thou' off or whatever you want).

........... or if the magazine length and resulting COAL is the primary determinant, you either don't load that bullet and choose a shorter model. or you stick to the long model and live with that COAL and seat the bullet deeper to suit the magazine accepting it's a non-optimum position and that the bullet shank and tail combined sitting below the case-neck may take up a great deal of case capacity that you want to put powder in. You also still need to check how that COAL and bullet shape match the chamber freebore if the rifle has already been chambered (or tell your gunsmith to throat the chamber for that bullet at that COAL giving him an inert example).

The 6.5mm Creedmoor chamber was designed to see the 140gn Hornady AMax more or less ideally seated in the case at 2.825" COAL. Some of the tail will be below the neck, but that's OK as noted. Longer bullets will be seated deeper though, but if your magazine feeds reliably at the 2.870" you quote, they could still be fine.

As the Sierra 150gn MK is one of the new super-long match models from that company and your chamber was likely set for a shorter, blunter 140gn model, it may well be seated deeper than ideal at 3.183" (less any jump you want to build in). Depending on the powder used, the 6.5-284 case usually has plenty of room, often quite a bit spare in fact. Providing no 'doughnut' (internal ring at the neck-shoulder junction) turns up, you'll probably suffer no issues from a bit deeper seating that sees some bullet shank below the neck.

The other answer is as before - seat a bullet optimally in an uncharged sized case and take it and the rifle to your gunsmith and ask for the chamber to be rethroated out a bit tgo suit. (A simple job using a hand throating reamer that's done with the barrel in situ in the action. Remember though, that whilst you can always take more metal out, you can't replace it. If the 150gn SMK at that COAL doesn't perform for you you're stuck with the freebore for it and shorter bullet models may end up with a great deal of jump to the lands even when seated relatively shallow in the case neck.
 
The throat on my 6.5 Creedmoor reamer is .200" My OAL for loaded rounds with 140 Amax is 2.810", 140 Hybrids is 2.865".
 
Thanks folks! This is the kind of details I am looking for! Im obviously looking at long range shooting, and am no way "set" on these two bullets. I also shoot 142SMK, 140AMAX, 143ELDX etc.

A follow up question: Not talking powder space or freebore, talking strictly accuracy, is there a point of putting a bullet "too deep" into a case that is detrimental to accuracy?

How about the other way? I believe a good rule of thumb is at very minimum, at least [1] neck diameter worth of bullet bearing surface seated inside the neck.

In the 6.5x284, I'd sure like to try the 150SMK, but am not married to it. I agree a shorter throat is a good idea, like you said, to accommodate other bullets, but also to account for erosion. I know this will have it. I've heard things like .040" erosion per 500 rnds…

Creedmoor was certainly developed as a match round, and I didn't know that the 2.825" was developed using the Amax. Good to know. I am planning to stay near that length, assuming it looks good with the ELDMs.

Last question before I shut up for a while: SMK, ELDM, AMAX, VLD...we all know they like to do different things. Some like to jump a lil, some like to jump a lot, some like jammed. Do folks have a preferred freebore jump to start with?
 
A follow up question: Not talking powder space or freebore, talking strictly accuracy, is there a point of putting a bullet "too deep" into a case that is detrimental to accuracy?

If there is a 'doughnut' at the case-neck-to-shoulder junction, pushing a bullet onto it or through it is usually disastrous in this respect. Very deep seated long bullets, long an issue in 260 Rem at magazine COALs, arouses mixed views. Some people hate it; others find that if you can live with the higher pressures, loss of powder capacity, reduced MVs it works just fine. It's certainly good enough for the disciplines that use magazine feed and rapid fire. I've loaded and tested rounds like this that grouped just great, even if magazine COAL also produces a large jump to the lands (but assuming the bullet is a true tangent ogive / jump tolerant design). Years back I tried various 77gn 224s in a very good long-throated 223 Rem rifle at both 2.26" COAL with bullets pushed well below the shoulders as if they were being loaded for an AR or similar; then the same bullets and powders at much longer COALs with no discernible difference apart from very heavily compressed charges at the shorter overall length setting.

Having said that, I'd bet there are few - if any - successful 600 and 1,000 yard benchrest shooters who indulge in over-deeply seated bullets. (If there are, I'd love to hear so!) It's almost an article of faith for L-R F-Class and BR etc shooters to use set-ups that get bullets close to or on the optimal position.

As for seating bullets out with a short grip on the shank at the forward end of the neck, you often hear that c. 1-calibre depth is enough / ideal. ......... or then again, as half-calibre depth as a minimum. Over the years, I've loaded and shot many combinations that had huge jumps to the lands due to a bullet length-freebore mismatch allied to high round count throat erosion where I seated bullets with ~0.1" grip in the neck that performed fine in all main calibres from 224 to 308. You need to handle the rounds carefully, and I wouldn't recommend use in a magazine. Oftentimes in such cases, groups were excellent but MVs were well down on those expected (a result of the large jump, not the shallow seating position). If an eroded throat is too rough though, nothing setting wise will make that barrel shoot well.

As to what bullets like ................. o_O ......... that's why there are so many threads on this forum asking about individual bullet models by make / type / weight / calibre, (not to mention optimum rifling pitch rates - another large can of worms) especially as the further bullets are developed to reduce drag and the longer they become in relation to calibre, the more particular they usually are. So, the 'Search' facility on this forum is your friend. There have been many such questions and multiple responses on the 6.5mm 150gn SMK for instance since its introduction 18 months or a couple of years ago.
 
I think great responses to your post, and wonder therefore why I am adding to them. I am having a rifle built in 6.5cm and have a particular bullet in mind I want to use in this rifle. Berger's 140gn Target Hybrid. So, FWIW, here is my thinking. I decided to have the chamber reamed (my nephew is the riflesmith, btw) to SAAMI specs and its freebore of 0.199 (0.200). For two reasons- I could not come up with a consensus regarding jump and the possibility that Berger would quit making this bullet (as Hornady did with their 140 gn Amax) and I did not want to buy enough of these bullets to equal the expected barrel life (Krieger).

If I had decided to ream for a specific bullet, I'd want to know what the consensus was for CBTO (jump/freebore) and I would want to buy enough of these bullets to last at least the expected life of the barrel. Which as I have read some shooters do anyway. Finally, I do not have any guarantee that my new rifle will 'like' this bullet. I've shot Berger's 140gn TH factory load and my rifle liked it, so am hopeful. But if my new rifle does not, I've got my bullet options open with the SAAMI spec chamber. Good luck!
 

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