if a 6.5x55 is loaded close to 6.5-284 how can the barrel life be much better? i realize it is burning a little less powder. can anyone give some powder/pressure numbers between the two.just put together a 6.5-284 and like it,was easy to get to shoot good, thanks to the tips from the 6.5-284 page. would like to see a similar page on the 6.5x55 just to compare to.also when will the gun manufactures make one.how about either in a standard rifle. cliffe
6.5-284 vs 6.5x55 barrel life
- Thread starter cliffe
- Start date
Okay...
I get 2940fps from 139gr Scenars in my 6.5-284 - others get more.
I've loaded a 6.5-08,aka .260 Rem) to 2800-2900 with 140gr bullets.
Several people I shoot with are loading 6.5x47Ls w/ 139gr Scenars and getting 2800-2850fps.
And you're saying a 6.5x55 Swede, with a case capacity just a little behind a 6.5-284, runs 200-300fps, or 2600-2700fps.
Maybe using book loads that are 'hobbled' to accomodate 100+ year old Mausers, but I think most people running a 6.5x55 in a modern gun would disagree.
YMMV,
Monte
I get 2940fps from 139gr Scenars in my 6.5-284 - others get more.
I've loaded a 6.5-08,aka .260 Rem) to 2800-2900 with 140gr bullets.
Several people I shoot with are loading 6.5x47Ls w/ 139gr Scenars and getting 2800-2850fps.
And you're saying a 6.5x55 Swede, with a case capacity just a little behind a 6.5-284, runs 200-300fps, or 2600-2700fps.
Maybe using book loads that are 'hobbled' to accomodate 100+ year old Mausers, but I think most people running a 6.5x55 in a modern gun would disagree.
YMMV,
Monte
running at the same pressure, true, the 6.5-284 will be faster,how much I don't know). However, most of the F-class shooters I know running the 6.5-284 are in the 2950 to a bit over 3000 mark. However, my 6.5 Swede,in Remington action) is pushing the 142 SMK's at 2940 without going to ridiculous pressures,I *have* been over the 3k mark but didn't want to stay there). 1500 rounds down the tube and I am starting to see the faint signs of wear in the throat area with the borescope. Perhaps someone with a similar number downrange from the 6.5-284 will describe the bore condition at the same round count, as I'd like to know too out of curiosity.
Eric
Eric
Mudcat
Gold $$ Contributor
50.5 grs of H4350 gets 2950fps in my 6.5x284 with a 142 SMK-moly. I too am interested in the 6.5swede deal cause I would love to get more bbl life than you apparently get with the 6.5-2834, dont know what it is yet as I havent gotten more than 300 rds through my Krieger bbl).
Eric is getting 2940 out of his Swede with 142s so that sounds pretty dang close to me! Please keep us informed re round count before accuracy goes south....also I am sling/iron shooter so I aint gotta have .2s accuracy, sub MOA is about all I can see/hold anyhow!
Eric is getting 2940 out of his Swede with 142s so that sounds pretty dang close to me! Please keep us informed re round count before accuracy goes south....also I am sling/iron shooter so I aint gotta have .2s accuracy, sub MOA is about all I can see/hold anyhow!
Spotcheck_Billy
Velocities in the 2950 to 3050 fps range seem to be where the 139 to 142 grain 6.5mm bullets like to be for the best accuracy in most barrels. At least that's what I've observed from my own experience and from what I've seen from the results of many other shooters in LR competition.
My 6.5-284 seems to be just loafing along when driving these bullets to these velocities, although I'll admit that I don't have the means to measure the chamber pressure.
If a shooter with a Swede is duplicating these velocities with the same bullets wouldn't his 6.5x55 be running at significantly higher chamber pressures? If that's the case, would the Swede actually have a measurably better barrel life?
My 6.5-284 seems to be just loafing along when driving these bullets to these velocities, although I'll admit that I don't have the means to measure the chamber pressure.
If a shooter with a Swede is duplicating these velocities with the same bullets wouldn't his 6.5x55 be running at significantly higher chamber pressures? If that's the case, would the Swede actually have a measurably better barrel life?
Spotcheck_Billy
milanuk said:
Monte,
The 6.5x47L case uses small rifle primers and was designed with a stronger web. That would allow it to be loaded to higher pressures than a 6.5-08, which would explain why it can get so close in velocity. I believe that if you loaded a 6.5-08 to those pressures the brass wouldn't survive many loadings. Just a thought .....
BTW, I own both a 6.5-284 and a 6.5x47L
what spotcheck billy said is what i'm wondering,thats why i posted the question. if you have to push a 6.5x55 high in pressure to get higher velocities is the barrel life really going to any better than a 6.5-284. both seem to be nice cartridges and both have a loyal following of shooters.after i win the lottery i'll build both and let everyone know. cliffe
I had a 6.5x284 and rebarreled it twice. The first time it went at around 1600rds. I shot this rifle with 140AMAXs running at around 2975fps this is where it shot the best. I tried some RL22 that went to 3100 but the brass was junk after one firing so I don't think you can push the 6.5x284 much more than 3000fps and use the brass more than a time or two.
I shot it in matches but tried to keep from getting the barrel any hotter than possible. The barrel was bore scoped after I came back from a match in Wyoming and it had 1200+ rds. down the tube at that time. JR, the barrel maker at H&S, said that it was just starting to show some throat wear. He figured that if I shot it the way I had been shooting it it would be good for about that many more rounds.
I pulled a groin muscle that spring training to go back to Wyoming so I gave the rifle to my son and let him use it. I told him "NO MAN ON MAN" crap with that rifle!!! Well, like all good sons, he didn't listen an around 400rds later the barrel was toast.
I rebarreled it an shot it for a while then sold it and had a 6.5x55 built to try to get more barrel life out of it. When I found a load that shot well and started shooting it long range I was surprised to find out I was shooting within .5MOA, for elevation, of my 6.5x284 data out to 900yds!!
I figured that if I shot it with this load I would burn the barrel out in about the same time as with the 6.5x284 so I backed it down to about where my 260 was shooting with the 140s and now I am hoping for better barrel life than either the 260 or the 6.5x284 by using a slow burning powder.
So the bottom line is that under normal and reasonable conditions the 6.5x55 will shoot with the 6.5x284. The 6.5x284 "Can" be made to shoot faster but the brass won't take it and accuracy really drops off. Just my opinion on the subject.
I shot it in matches but tried to keep from getting the barrel any hotter than possible. The barrel was bore scoped after I came back from a match in Wyoming and it had 1200+ rds. down the tube at that time. JR, the barrel maker at H&S, said that it was just starting to show some throat wear. He figured that if I shot it the way I had been shooting it it would be good for about that many more rounds.
I pulled a groin muscle that spring training to go back to Wyoming so I gave the rifle to my son and let him use it. I told him "NO MAN ON MAN" crap with that rifle!!! Well, like all good sons, he didn't listen an around 400rds later the barrel was toast.
I rebarreled it an shot it for a while then sold it and had a 6.5x55 built to try to get more barrel life out of it. When I found a load that shot well and started shooting it long range I was surprised to find out I was shooting within .5MOA, for elevation, of my 6.5x284 data out to 900yds!!
I figured that if I shot it with this load I would burn the barrel out in about the same time as with the 6.5x284 so I backed it down to about where my 260 was shooting with the 140s and now I am hoping for better barrel life than either the 260 or the 6.5x284 by using a slow burning powder.
So the bottom line is that under normal and reasonable conditions the 6.5x55 will shoot with the 6.5x284. The 6.5x284 "Can" be made to shoot faster but the brass won't take it and accuracy really drops off. Just my opinion on the subject.
Spotcheck_Billy
Raptor,
What brand of brass were you using in that 6.5-284 when you pushed it to 3100 using Re22? It wouldn't be Norma, would it?
The reason I ask is that I had a very similar experience when loading Norma brass to those velocities in my last 6.5-284, but haven't encountered that kind of problem with my new rifle using both H4831sc and H4350 and Lapua brass
In any case, the new rifle still likes to stay around 3000 MV and no higher for the best accuracy. Since I no longer shoot tactical man-on-man events I suspect that this barrel will last a reasonably long time.
What brand of brass were you using in that 6.5-284 when you pushed it to 3100 using Re22? It wouldn't be Norma, would it?
The reason I ask is that I had a very similar experience when loading Norma brass to those velocities in my last 6.5-284, but haven't encountered that kind of problem with my new rifle using both H4831sc and H4350 and Lapua brass
In any case, the new rifle still likes to stay around 3000 MV and no higher for the best accuracy. Since I no longer shoot tactical man-on-man events I suspect that this barrel will last a reasonably long time.
This is becoming quite interesting, with the added info from the 6.5-284 guys. I'm getting the velocity with my Swede using 48gr of H4831SC in a 30" tube,strictly and F-Class rig), Lapua brass and a nice snug chamber. Obviously, shooting 20 shot strings plus sighter's gets the barrel somewhat toasty, so it hasn't been babied. I am reckoning to re-barrel after this shooting season, or depending on what my gunsmith recommends maybe setting it back a bit.
Condition of brass is such that it has no visible signs of overpressure, easy bolt opening, etc. I started with RL 22 as that is the powder I load my military Swedes with, but while velocity was better, ES and SD was not. I suspect the lifespan is better because while pressure may be up, actual amount of powder burned is down from the bigger case. I have read a theory that the improved version of the Swede is supposed to be the ideal case capacity for the 6.5 bore, and may test that one of these days.
Eric
Condition of brass is such that it has no visible signs of overpressure, easy bolt opening, etc. I started with RL 22 as that is the powder I load my military Swedes with, but while velocity was better, ES and SD was not. I suspect the lifespan is better because while pressure may be up, actual amount of powder burned is down from the bigger case. I have read a theory that the improved version of the Swede is supposed to be the ideal case capacity for the 6.5 bore, and may test that one of these days.
Eric
Spotcheck,
That would be correct!! I had some of the first run of the Norma brass and then when I reordered I was sent the 2nd version of the brass. I am thinking there was over 10grs of weight difference in the brass,could have even been more its been a while, so I had to keep them segregated. I believe I used 53grs of H4831sc in one case and 54grs in the other case to get the same point of impact @ 1000yds.
RL22 was the best powder for speed but the thing I didn't like about it was you would have no stiff bolt lift at the load you were testing then go up a half of grain and blow primers. I just felt that the pressure spiked really fast on the RL22 and maybe thats just with the Norma brass that I had causing it to do this.
I still have a love for the 6.5x284 and will probably build another one now that I don't shoot much competition. I really like being able to dial in a target at 1000yds and know when I pull the trigger if I did my part I am going to hit it. It was the most consistantly accurate rifle I ever owned.
That would be correct!! I had some of the first run of the Norma brass and then when I reordered I was sent the 2nd version of the brass. I am thinking there was over 10grs of weight difference in the brass,could have even been more its been a while, so I had to keep them segregated. I believe I used 53grs of H4831sc in one case and 54grs in the other case to get the same point of impact @ 1000yds.
RL22 was the best powder for speed but the thing I didn't like about it was you would have no stiff bolt lift at the load you were testing then go up a half of grain and blow primers. I just felt that the pressure spiked really fast on the RL22 and maybe thats just with the Norma brass that I had causing it to do this.
I still have a love for the 6.5x284 and will probably build another one now that I don't shoot much competition. I really like being able to dial in a target at 1000yds and know when I pull the trigger if I did my part I am going to hit it. It was the most consistantly accurate rifle I ever owned.
As general rules of thumb, we expect cartridges that burn more powder to eat barrels faster.
Has there been any research into how pressure and the type of powder/flame temp/duration plays into this?
We know that 139/142gr 6.5 match bullets fly best in the 2800 to 3000 fps range. We can get this from a 6.5X47L at very high pressures or a 6.5X284 at magnum pressures but usually with a lower density 'fast' powder or a 260AI/6.5 Swede at magnum pressures and high load density.
Many 6.5X284 owners report short barrel life maxing at 1200/1500rds. Quite a number shoot H4350 which is a low density powder "fast" powder in this case.
Many 260AI/Swede owners report going 2500rds or more using powders like H4831SC. Less powder then the 6.5X284, yes, but also a high density "slow" powder in this case.
The 6.5 X47L is still pretty new but I wonder if burning 'fast' powder like Re15 at high pressures might be as erosive as the 6.5X284?
Would using a very slow powder like H1000/Re25/Retumbo in the 6.5X284 INCREASE barrel life?
Jerry
Has there been any research into how pressure and the type of powder/flame temp/duration plays into this?
We know that 139/142gr 6.5 match bullets fly best in the 2800 to 3000 fps range. We can get this from a 6.5X47L at very high pressures or a 6.5X284 at magnum pressures but usually with a lower density 'fast' powder or a 260AI/6.5 Swede at magnum pressures and high load density.
Many 6.5X284 owners report short barrel life maxing at 1200/1500rds. Quite a number shoot H4350 which is a low density powder "fast" powder in this case.
Many 260AI/Swede owners report going 2500rds or more using powders like H4831SC. Less powder then the 6.5X284, yes, but also a high density "slow" powder in this case.
The 6.5 X47L is still pretty new but I wonder if burning 'fast' powder like Re15 at high pressures might be as erosive as the 6.5X284?
Would using a very slow powder like H1000/Re25/Retumbo in the 6.5X284 INCREASE barrel life?
Jerry
Jerry,
You bring up some intresting points that I too have wondered about. The bottom line is its still how we shoot the rifle that burns out the barrels.
I have been following Josers 6MMCM saga with great intrest on the 6MM side of this. He claims he is getting 3000+ rounds out of the 243 case which is really something in my book!!
He claims its the slow burning powders and the larger case cap. that is the key. He may be on to something. If I ever build another 6.5x284 I will try shooting the H1000 in it from the start. I did use H4831SC where a lot of people used H4350 and I was in the 1200+ rounds on mine when I returned from a match in Wyoming an had it bore scoped. It was just starting to show some throat errosion at 1200rds which I thought was great!!
The barrel maker from H&S thought it would go at least that many more if shot the same way I was shooting it. But to make a long story short, one match an 400rds later and it was toast. It went from a .4 gun to a .7 gun. I had always tried not to get it to hot when shooting it. Sometimes this was not possible due to match conditions but I did not abuse it when ever possible. I honestly belive it would have made it to 2000+ rounds with no problems and by most standards thats really great for a 6.5x284.
You bring up some intresting points that I too have wondered about. The bottom line is its still how we shoot the rifle that burns out the barrels.
I have been following Josers 6MMCM saga with great intrest on the 6MM side of this. He claims he is getting 3000+ rounds out of the 243 case which is really something in my book!!
He claims its the slow burning powders and the larger case cap. that is the key. He may be on to something. If I ever build another 6.5x284 I will try shooting the H1000 in it from the start. I did use H4831SC where a lot of people used H4350 and I was in the 1200+ rounds on mine when I returned from a match in Wyoming an had it bore scoped. It was just starting to show some throat errosion at 1200rds which I thought was great!!
The barrel maker from H&S thought it would go at least that many more if shot the same way I was shooting it. But to make a long story short, one match an 400rds later and it was toast. It went from a .4 gun to a .7 gun. I had always tried not to get it to hot when shooting it. Sometimes this was not possible due to match conditions but I did not abuse it when ever possible. I honestly belive it would have made it to 2000+ rounds with no problems and by most standards thats really great for a 6.5x284.
Spotcheck_Billy
I was ordering a barrel from Boots Obermeyer about seven or eight years ago when the question of barrel life came up in our conversation. Or should I say throat life?
It was Boots' contention that the main enemy was heat and that heat could be manifested in several ways. Among them were heating up a barrel in rapid fire matches and never giving it a chance to cool down. High chamber pressures combined with a powder that has a very high flame temperature was another, along with a high powder capacity to bore size. He specifically mentioned double base,nitrocellulose + nitroglycerin) powders like those in the Reloader series and the VV 500 hybrid series as having a very high flame temperature. He told me that he would like to perform a controlled study on the subject but he never had found the time to undertake it.
And what exactly is acceptable barrel,accuracy) life anyway? In most cases what's acceptable to a Tactical,or perhaps an F-Class) competitor wouldn't be acceptable to a BR guy. I point out the .243 Win. as an example. George Gardner maintains that he gets 3000 rounds out of his .243 Win. Tactical barrels. He was pushing 115 Moly'd DTAC's at 3150 fps using Re25 powder. I wouldn't dream of calling George a liar, but I seriously doubt that his barrel,after 3000 rds) would've passed muster for many of the shooters on this forum. I'm putting this out more in the form of a question than any kind of accusation.
I think that the 6.5-284 has gotten an unfair rap in the barrel life department, just as I think that some claims about the superior barrel life of a heavily loaded 6.5x55 have been exagergated in the other direction.
Go ahead, flame away
It was Boots' contention that the main enemy was heat and that heat could be manifested in several ways. Among them were heating up a barrel in rapid fire matches and never giving it a chance to cool down. High chamber pressures combined with a powder that has a very high flame temperature was another, along with a high powder capacity to bore size. He specifically mentioned double base,nitrocellulose + nitroglycerin) powders like those in the Reloader series and the VV 500 hybrid series as having a very high flame temperature. He told me that he would like to perform a controlled study on the subject but he never had found the time to undertake it.
And what exactly is acceptable barrel,accuracy) life anyway? In most cases what's acceptable to a Tactical,or perhaps an F-Class) competitor wouldn't be acceptable to a BR guy. I point out the .243 Win. as an example. George Gardner maintains that he gets 3000 rounds out of his .243 Win. Tactical barrels. He was pushing 115 Moly'd DTAC's at 3150 fps using Re25 powder. I wouldn't dream of calling George a liar, but I seriously doubt that his barrel,after 3000 rds) would've passed muster for many of the shooters on this forum. I'm putting this out more in the form of a question than any kind of accusation.
I think that the 6.5-284 has gotten an unfair rap in the barrel life department, just as I think that some claims about the superior barrel life of a heavily loaded 6.5x55 have been exagergated in the other direction.
Go ahead, flame away
I shoot F class but want my rifle to shoot in the 1/4min range. Less is of course better but no more then 1/2 min. That is after shooting 20rds in 15mins under calm conditions.
I think the main reason for the 6.5X284 barrel burning rep is the use of a 'fast' powder at high pressures. Load density is very low. I keep putting quotes around fast and slow because the same powder will have different relative burn rates given the application.
Not sure why slower powders were not tried in general? Maybe the thought of using more powder would accelerate the wear issue? Anyways, we have enough shooters who see a significant drop in accuracy in the low thousands to consider that a reliable trend.
The Swedes and 260AI/Mystic use H4831SC very often. Seems to provide a great blend of velocity, pressure and certainly we are getting more barrel life. I am over 1700rds and have shot groups in the 1/4min range at 200yds. I hope to reach 2500rds before things go south.
I feel strongly that a 'hot' powder burnt at high pressures will be more erosive. The military has been trying to resolve this forever. One solution was to put deterents on their ball powders. Others are additives that can actually remove copper fouling,so the claims go).
In our applications, there is a very strong trend to use small cases to do the same work at larger cases. The only way is with long barrels at high pressures and fast powders.
I have seen posts that indicated relatively short life with the 6XC. Trying to push very heavy for cal bullets using fast powders maybe a main cause. No one has ever done a comprehensive test.
We will see as more shots get fired through the 6 and 6.5X47L using 'fast' powders at very high pressures. Be nice to see how they barrels last...
Jerry
I think the main reason for the 6.5X284 barrel burning rep is the use of a 'fast' powder at high pressures. Load density is very low. I keep putting quotes around fast and slow because the same powder will have different relative burn rates given the application.
Not sure why slower powders were not tried in general? Maybe the thought of using more powder would accelerate the wear issue? Anyways, we have enough shooters who see a significant drop in accuracy in the low thousands to consider that a reliable trend.
The Swedes and 260AI/Mystic use H4831SC very often. Seems to provide a great blend of velocity, pressure and certainly we are getting more barrel life. I am over 1700rds and have shot groups in the 1/4min range at 200yds. I hope to reach 2500rds before things go south.
I feel strongly that a 'hot' powder burnt at high pressures will be more erosive. The military has been trying to resolve this forever. One solution was to put deterents on their ball powders. Others are additives that can actually remove copper fouling,so the claims go).
In our applications, there is a very strong trend to use small cases to do the same work at larger cases. The only way is with long barrels at high pressures and fast powders.
I have seen posts that indicated relatively short life with the 6XC. Trying to push very heavy for cal bullets using fast powders maybe a main cause. No one has ever done a comprehensive test.
We will see as more shots get fired through the 6 and 6.5X47L using 'fast' powders at very high pressures. Be nice to see how they barrels last...
Jerry
Spotcheck_Billy
Jerry,
Although my pet 6.5-284 load uses H4350, most shooters that I've spoken with use H4831sc with that cartridge because they believe they get superior results with its higher load density. I'm not so sure that their barrel life is appreciably better.
It certainly will be interesting to see what kind of barrel life the 6.5x47L gets. I've been shooting mine since last summer using nothing but Re15 and a 123 Scenar loaded to 2990 MV from my 28" barrel. In fact my load is pretty much identical to Zak Smith's load featured on the Home page, only I'm using one-tenth grain more powder. I've only got 400 rounds down the tube so far, but at this point the borescope shows negligable wear and the throat hasn't advanced at all. So far - so good, but I'm sure that time will tell.
Although my pet 6.5-284 load uses H4350, most shooters that I've spoken with use H4831sc with that cartridge because they believe they get superior results with its higher load density. I'm not so sure that their barrel life is appreciably better.
It certainly will be interesting to see what kind of barrel life the 6.5x47L gets. I've been shooting mine since last summer using nothing but Re15 and a 123 Scenar loaded to 2990 MV from my 28" barrel. In fact my load is pretty much identical to Zak Smith's load featured on the Home page, only I'm using one-tenth grain more powder. I've only got 400 rounds down the tube so far, but at this point the borescope shows negligable wear and the throat hasn't advanced at all. So far - so good, but I'm sure that time will tell.
Been reviewing various load data for the 6.5X47L through to the 6.5X284. Powder weights go from high 30's to mid 50's gr. Velocity are similar. Accuracy the same. Wear big difference.
We know the 284 shooters wear out almost twice as fast as the Swedes/260AI's.
Here is my theory:
Let's suppose that fast powders have a higher peak temp then slow powders when burnt at similar pressures.
Metal can take alot of abuse at a certain temp but erodes rapidly once that temp is exceeded.
So when you use small amounts of fast powder, you may get a higher temp peak but the duration is relatively short. The temp of the steel doesn't reach its 'wear' level.
When you use larger amounts of slow powder the peak temp is lower but the duration is much longer. This allows the steel to heat up beyond its 'durable' temp causing it to erode.
For the 6.5 cal, going over 48gr of H4831SC or 46gr of H4350 puts too much heat energy into the steel for too long causing it to reach its 'wear' temp and wear faster.
Pretty decent SWAG and seems to agrees with shooters observations.
Let's see how the 47L's wear. If they wear quickly then the much higher pressures of fast powder may prove as errosive as too much slow powder.
Jerry
We know the 284 shooters wear out almost twice as fast as the Swedes/260AI's.
Here is my theory:
Let's suppose that fast powders have a higher peak temp then slow powders when burnt at similar pressures.
Metal can take alot of abuse at a certain temp but erodes rapidly once that temp is exceeded.
So when you use small amounts of fast powder, you may get a higher temp peak but the duration is relatively short. The temp of the steel doesn't reach its 'wear' level.
When you use larger amounts of slow powder the peak temp is lower but the duration is much longer. This allows the steel to heat up beyond its 'durable' temp causing it to erode.
For the 6.5 cal, going over 48gr of H4831SC or 46gr of H4350 puts too much heat energy into the steel for too long causing it to reach its 'wear' temp and wear faster.
Pretty decent SWAG and seems to agrees with shooters observations.
Let's see how the 47L's wear. If they wear quickly then the much higher pressures of fast powder may prove as errosive as too much slow powder.
Jerry
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.