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5R type rifling ?

I hear mention of this rifling but rarely hear any reviews from the guys who seem to do well in competition.
So, the question is how do you guys feel about it (5R rifling) in your 6mm/6.5 mm rifles, is it bullet sensitive, does it effect velocity and mainly accuracy relative to a standard 4 groove rifled barrel for instance?
 
To my knowledge no research has concluded that any rifling is better than another. Each kind has won.. some say less friction equals less fowling or such, but i still havent seen hard evidence of anything yet.
 
I have several in 6 & 6.5 mm. Love them.

Bartlein, Broughton and Kreiger shooting currently.

Easy to clean also.

I'm not going to say definitively that they are faster than a 3 or 4 groove, but I've never had a slow one either. I run mostly Berger VLDS and Scenars.
 
LHSmith said:
I believe it is not recommended for short bearing area bullets.

Hi LHSMITH, Did you happen to hear what was meant (measurement) by short bearing surface? That could mean a lot of things like 5R won't shoot 6mm bullets below 65gr,75gr,87gr,etc.

In one of the posts above on this forum, I think Johara1 said how can they shoot better than a 4 groove when it puts them all in 1 hole, LOL ;D, the man has a good point but I don't really know.
The guy that invented 5R rifling I believe has it patented, I forget his companies name.
However, since Kreiger is charging a $30.00 premium for 5R rifling I'm assuming (Oh,Oh) they are paying him for being able to use/sell it. I doubt they would do it if there wasn't some tangible benefits to 5R rifling.
I posted the question hoping we would get a lot more opinions, but evidently not much experience in this area yet.
One would think that as much money as people spend on this forum buying Kreiger barrels, not to mention the influence to the outside forum world, they would have a spokes person providing some answers here. This is just my opinion before some one starts to get all bent out of shape 8).
 
I've chambered and shot plenty of standard rifling Kriegers, 5R Kriegers, 5R Bartleins. Cannot tell one iota of difference in how they shoot or clean up. But I have had chatter problems chambering 5R barrels.....just like others have noted. Think I have it figured out now, just gotta take it slow when chambering 5Rs. Other than that, no difference IMHO.
 
I have seen a lot of 5C Broughtons shoot really good. I won a lot of 1000 yard matches using one and have seen a lot of others shoot well also. Matt
 
Changeling said:
Hi LHSMITH, Did you happen to hear what was meant (measurement) by short bearing surface? That could mean a lot of things like 5R won't shoot 6mm bullets below 65gr,75gr,87gr,etc.
In my case my I was advised 30 cal. 7 ogive 112 grain match bullets will not work well in a 5R barrel I have on a 30BR Hunter Class gun. This was input from a fellow competitor who could not get any of the 5R's he has chambered to shoot bullets that were minimal on bearing surface well enough to be competitive even though the rate of twist was correct. These results were collaborated by other competitors. "You can try them, they'll work....somedays when conditions are just right" - his words exactly.
FWIW the 30's in question have virtually no bearing surface.....put them between caliper jaws and the only contact is at the very heel.
 
LHSmith said:
Changeling said:
Hi LHSMITH, Did you happen to hear what was meant (measurement) by short bearing surface? That could mean a lot of things like 5R won't shoot 6mm bullets below 65gr,75gr,87gr,etc.
In my case my I advised 30 cal. 7 ogive 112 grain match bullets will not work well in a 5R barrel I have on a Hunter Class gun. This was input from a fellow competitor who could not get any of the 5R's he has chambered to shoot bullets that were minimal on bearing surface well enough to be competitive even though the rate of twist was correct. These results were collaborated by other competitors. "You can try them, they'll work....somedays when conditions are just right" - his words exactly.
FWIW the 30's in question have virtually no bearing surface.....put them between caliper jaws and the only contact is at the very heel.

Also, Frank green from Bartlein recommends against a 5r for benchrest shooters. I can't say at what length the difference starts but, personally, just to be safe for anything less than 105 class bullets I wouldn't use 5R. Well maybe the 95's...

On kriegers web site it said that they do not see an advantage with 5r over 4 groove.
 
i cant understand why frank would say that,
i shoot 1000 yd ibs with my light gun in 6.5 creedmoor - 140 berger vld with a 28 in bartlein 5r and it shoots sub 5 in groups at 1k and .109 in 5 shot groups at 100. and its alot easier to clean and dont copper as bad as my 4 groove kreiger. thats fact. i LOVE AND HIGHLY RECOMMEND A 1:8 twist 5r in 264. my shoots VERY WELL and you can look on ibs website and see what matches ive won using it.
 
swampthang said:
i cant understand why frank would say that,
i shoot 1000 yd ibs with my light gun in 6.5 creedmoor - 140 berger vld with a 28 in bartlein 5r and it shoots sub 5 in groups at 1k and .109 in 5 shot groups at 100. and its alot easier to clean and dont copper as bad as my 4 groove kreiger. thats fact. i LOVE AND HIGHLY RECOMMEND A 1:8 twist 5r in 264. my shoots VERY WELL and you can look on ibs website and see what matches ive won using it.

Sorry, should have sprcified. The short bullets that the short range guys use.
 
I have canted land five groove barrels from Rock Creek and Broughton, both chambered in 6PPC. While they have no particular advantage I think that the reason that they may have gotten a bad rap for this application is that they build pressure differently as bullets are engraving when fired. For many years, 133 was the predominant powder in short range benchrest, and it is my impression that it "likes" some resistance at the start, usually handled by using substantial neck tension, but rifling form can also be involved. Some years back, when cleaning my Rock Creek barrel, I noticed that it took less effort to start a patch in the bore than my conventionally rifled barrels. Thinking about this, and shooting 133, it occurred to me that the reason that I had been getting less than stellar results with it and my other canted land barrel was because I may have been trying to load for them with the same general charge weights as I had been using with my other barrels, so the next time I was at the range, I did some experimenting with heavier charges than I could have gotten away with in my other barrels. It worked. The only problem was that with the light bullet that I was working with that day (62 gr. Watsons) required over 30 grains of 133 for best results, and that was a pain to get in the cases. I could do it, but it was a pain. Knowing what I know, I would not order a canted land barrel for short range benchrest, even though I have figured out how to make mine shoot adequately.
 
Now this is a lot of good information. Every person I have talked to on other forums ( lot lower level of expertise) would usually mention that the 5R rifling was the latest kind so it must offer advantages over older methods. That's when I started wondering if this was an unacknowledged fad or the real thing.
Thanks to all who have responded I have received the information I was looking for, thanks a lot to everyone.
 
I have 2 Rock Creek 5R 1 in 8 6 Dasher barrels. One on a 12FTR and the other a sporter weight on a Marin X7. I shoot 105 's with the FTR and 87 gr Vmax's in the X7. They are very accurate an clean easily. I know Rock Creek has made many 338 Barrels for the military, and iirc all Remington sniper barrels are 5R. I ain't saying other types of rifling are inferior they obviously are not. I would definitely buy another Rock Creek when the time comes. JMO Barlow
 
The guy that invented 5R rifling I believe has it patented, I forget his companies name. [Changeling]

I don't know about patenting it, but I'm pretty sure it was Boots Obermeyer who first used 5C rifling in his barrels for custom high-quality match types. Dr. Geoff Kolbe who founded the UK's former Border Barrels company learned his barrelmaking trade by working for Boots in the '80s or '90s and was / is a 5C fan.

It's not an all-new idea. Many European military arsenals used 5-groove rifling throughout much of the 20th Century as it was found that an odd number of grooves supported the bullet better especially with poor dimensional matches - a land is always opposite a groove. Enfield Lock used the five groove form throughout the Lee-Enfield service rifle series' long history except in WW2 when 2-groove was adopted as an emergency measure - and government arsenals don't do more work / add costs unless they have a good reason. Canted and shallow grooves aren't at all new either.

Very interesting what Boyd says on starting pressures and PPC / N133 with this barrel form. I could well believe it. My 308 FTR rifle has a Broughton 5C barrel and I seat some bullet types well into the rifling for best results, but without the pressure increase that I'd seen with this practice on other barrels. I'd never considered it might be related to the 5C form.
 
The "R" in 5R stands for Russian. Boots modified it some and was the first to do it here in the States. It is a 5 groove barrel with an angle on both sides of the lands.

Broughton copied Boots stuff but only puts the angle on the driving side of the lands.

Look at 1917 Enfield barrels in .30-06. They're all conventional 5 groove. Same as .303 British service rifles. Both the 1917 and British guns have a left hand twist.

No I don't believe a 5R cleans any easier than a barrel with conventional rifling. At least not the way I clean my guns.

The 5R rifling doesn't like short jacket 6mm bullets. Say bullets around 80gr. and less is what I go with. They will shoot in the upper .2xx's to flat .3xx's but you won't get anything more out of them.

My 6 Creedmoor is a 1-8 twist and 5R. I only shoot 105-107gr. bullets thru it. If you drive the gun right it will give you 1/4moa. It's set up as a tactical bolt gun. Not a bench gun.

Some say if you want hard core accuracy you want conventional rifling or what we call Whitworth/English style rifling. This is where the lands basically meet the grooves at a 90 degree corner. I agree with this mostly from the stand point of the short jacket 6mm bullets. Those short jackets don't have a lot of bearing surface for the lands. The lands do the driving of the bullet. Not the grooves.

I do feel the 5R rifling does help fight bullet failure. The odd number of lands don't directly oppose one another. So it will distort/upset the bullet jacket less.

My 6ppc gun has a conventional 5 groove barrel and it just pounds them.

I don't feel one rifling style over another has any distinct advantage over another in terms of barrel life and or accuracy with the exception of the short jacket 6mm bullets.

Hope this helps clarify some of the questions on it.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels
 
Frank, thanks for all the information, it's really nice to see a top end barrel manufacturer come on the forum and offer unbiased information about his products.

When a few people talk about some product being great and another few show information heading in the opposite direction or else where, it's like "catch 22", meaning where in does the truth really belong.
One thing that is unquestionable is the fact that you get more feedback in your position as a manufacturer of barrels then any few people could ever even hope for. I expect you get a few headaches the others don't get also, LOL ;D

Now if we can just get you to explain how to make or barrels "Hummers", that would be 8).
 
Good post and interesting thread. I've often wondered of the pro's & con's with the different land/groove combinations available, especially the 3 and 5 groove flavors.

To the OP, thanks for asking.
 

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