5.56 / AR Load Development

[treillw]

I have an AR with a red dot on it. I'm trying to do some sort of load development for it, but it's much different than bolt guns. I can hardly tell where I'm aiming at 50 yards, trying to shoot groups with it. I guess if a red dot is my sighting system, I can't be too worried about precision. But at the same time, I don't want it shooting 8" groups because of the load at 100 yards either. Any tips on how to do load development better? I don't really want to add a magnifier to it, or buy one. I thought about using my cell phone or some other device to get a better sight picture for load development. Mounting my cellphone up on a tripod and using the camera might work. Hopefully I'm not the only one that is this crazy !

What do you look for in AR load development? Just creep up to the max book load, shoot it over a chronograph, and watch for pressure signs? Pressure signs are different than in a bolt gun - what are they?

I know many people go over the book max with bolt guns. Is this a bad idea with an AR?

I have a 14.5" barrel and a 10.5" barrel, shooting 77 grain TMKs. What should be my goal?

Thanks!

 

[Jeff Porter]

Shoot a " standard " load for 77 gr. bullets and call it good. 24.0 Varget, 23.2 8208, 23.5 H4895 at 2.250 all come to mind as known MOA loads in a 20" barrel.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

Also you might try Sierra’s accuracy AR15 load for that bullet. I can pm it to you if you want it.

 

[markm87]

You ought to easily be able to hold 3 MOA with a red dot at 100 if your eyesight isn't an issue.

Dialing the dot down to as low as possible where you can still pick it up, AND selecting a target that complements the sight picture are very helpful.

Aside from that working up to around 2500 fps out of your 14.5 should get you in the hunt.

 

[6Creed73]

I don't put a ton of time into load development for my AR rifles, except for 300BLK where I do a lot of experimenting with subsonic loads.

Also, I don't put red dots on anything that will be used past 50 yards. I prefer a low power scope, like a 1-8x or a fixed power prism sight. I like prism sights much more than red dots, even if it's just a 1x, because the dot/reticle is much clearer...especially if you have an astigmatism.

 

[GLShooter]

Part of the secret is to have an aiming point that is larger than the dot so you can center up on the dot. It shouldn't be huge just enough that you can clearly see an edge around your dot.

 

[Idaho-Lefty]

IMO, a 2 x 7 or, 3 x 9 Burris or Leupold Scope, would be better than, a Red Dot ( For Dot "Ranges" Use, a Shotgun ! ).
The 77's are too Heavy of a Bullet for, Short Barrels at,.. SHORT Ranges !
65 gr. Sierra GK's or , 69 gr. SMK's are what I use, in a 1-7 Twist, 16 inch Barrel ( @ 2,750 FPS+) to,.. 500 yards.
I'd try, the New StaBall "Match" Powder but, I've had, No problems with, 25.3 grs of Win 748 with, 69 SMK's

 

[LVLAaron]

Shoot a " standard " load for 77 gr. bullets and call it good. 24.0 Varget, 23.2 8208, 23.5 H4895 at 2.250 all come to mind as known MOA loads in a 20" barrel.

End thread. This is the correct answer.

 

[Eudean]

I have an AR with a red dot on it. I'm trying to do some sort of load development for it, but it's much different than bolt guns. I can hardly tell where I'm aiming at 50 yards, trying to shoot groups with it. I guess if a red dot is my sighting system, I can't be too worried about precision. But at the same time, I don't want it shooting 8" groups because of the load at 100 yards either. Any tips on how to do load development better? I don't really want to add a magnifier to it, or buy one. I thought about using my cell phone or some other device to get a better sight picture for load development. Mounting my cellphone up on a tripod and using the camera might work. Hopefully I'm not the only one that is this crazy !

What do you look for in AR load development? Just creep up to the max book load, shoot it over a chronograph, and watch for pressure signs? Pressure signs are different than in a bolt gun - what are they?

I know many people go over the book max with bolt guns. Is this a bad idea with an AR?

I have a 14.5" barrel and a 10.5" barrel, shooting 77 grain TMKs. What should be my goal?

Thanks!

Seems better sighting equipment is in order if can't see target to hit it at 50 yards. Cam

 

[rmr]

Shoot a " standard " load for 77 gr. bullets and call it good. 24.0 Varget, 23.2 8208, 23.5 H4895 at 2.250 all come to mind as known MOA loads in a 20" barrel.

Another vote for this method.

I just use whatever I have the most of (cheapest/largest Qty , bullet/powder)

I also have a dedicated 24x leo on a quick detach mount that i'll swap over specifically for the load development phase if I'm feeling really masochistic

 

[Eagle Six]

Here are the solutions with your aiming.....

You ought to easily be able to hold 3 MOA with a red dot at 100 if your eyesight isn't an issue.

Dialing the dot down to as low as possible where you can still pick it up, AND selecting a target that complements the sight picture are very helpful.

Aside from that working up to around 2500 fps out of your 14.5 should get you in the hunt.

and....

Part of the secret is to have an aiming point that is larger than the dot so you can center up on the dot. It shouldn't be huge just enough that you can clearly see an edge around your dot.

I get slightly less than 2 MOA from my 10.5" 1:7 with Norma 69 Match and a 1-8x24 glass. I cannot shoot that tight with a red dot. If you cannot get a target as suggested above, or a better fitted sight for development, then bring the target in closer to where the target fits the dot until you get a better target. It seems easier to me to get a better target, set it at 50 yards, turn the brightness down and then do this.....

Shoot a " standard " load for 77 gr. bullets and call it good. 24.0 Varget, 23.2 8208, 23.5 H4895 at 2.250 all come to mind as known MOA loads in a 20" barrel.

 

[markm87]

End thread. This is the correct answer.

Those are good loads to work towards, but every Lot change we get with any of those powders requires an adjustment. I'm almost reluctant to post charge weights anymore. I've had some significant lot variations with XBR and Varget.

 

[jepp2]

Just creep up to the max book load, shoot it over a chronograph, and watch for pressure signs? Pressure signs are different than in a bolt gun - what are they?

About the only pressure sign you give up with an AR vs a bolt gun is hard bolt lift. The rest remain the same. But keep in mind, generally by the time you see most of them, you are way over pressure.

I much prefer to use a chrono and watch my velocities vs expected. I've shot several cases of XM193 when I was needing some once fired brass for prairie dog hunts. I knew from once fired military brass, loose primer pockets can be an issue. I found I needed to have the ammo colder than 40 degrees F, or I would get some case head flow and loose primer pockets on the firing.

Not sure how you expect to develop an accurate load with the sighting limitation. A good mid pressure load and shoot pop cans.

 

[LiveFire]

Youre gonna have to put a magnified optic on it. Even a cheapie to verify accuracy. Then throw your dot back on. You will be wasting time and money trying to develop loads with a dot thats only gonna let you shoot a 2-3" circle at 100yds if everything is perfect. If you just want plinking ammo then there is plenty of cheap 55gr fmj data out there using cheaper powders.

I keep a cheaper nikon buckmaster 3-9x40 around just for this kinda stuff.

 

[treillw]

Also you might try Sierra’s accuracy AR15 load for that bullet. I can pm it to you if you want it.

Sure, cant hurt. Thanks!

 

[Ryan66]

Just a thought so take it for what it’s worth -
A 77TMK is about as expensive of a bullet that can be loaded for AR mag length and you are using setups with red dots which can’t really benefit much accuracy wise from a bullet like that. There are lots of projectiles that are half the cost of a 77TMK and can likely get the same realistic accuracy from a red dot equipped AR ?

Or I’m missing something and a 77TMK is desired for its terminal effects ?

 

[RabbitSlayer]

Just pony up and get a target scope. I have a 6-24x50 athlon midas tac just for this. I run low power scopes on my hunting guns like 1-4, 2-7, or my fav 2-10. I get it shooting with the target scope first. I can't believe how well a ruger MPR upper can shoot after load development. I tell ya cheap federal 556 sprayed like 3+ moa. Fiocchi vmax about 1.25 to 1.5. Here is the result of load development. I did everything same as a bolt. Pressure \ velocity test. Back off pressure found in test 1 and do seating depth test. Powder test. Verify the load is good with 20+ rounds. Still haven't whacked a song dog, lame.

First one sighting in the 2-10 and the second confirming the load with the target scope. Shot from a stable table and bipod.

 

[Doom]

When using a Red Dot for load development it can require a little imagination. Depending on your eyesight you will need to be able to see the aiming point. So if you are using a Red Dot with a 3 MOA dot then you need either a 3" (cover) or 4" (center) aiming point. 2 MOA then a 2" or 3" aiming point. Make your own targets with freezer paper and past on Target Spots.

If you stay with 77Gr I would try faster powders like IMR 3031, VV N135, AA2230, H4198 which are considered a little fast for the 77 but will give good burnout in the 14.5" and 10" barrels.

 

[marchboom]

Red dots for load development are a waste of time and components. As others have stated, get a higher power scope and do your load development with it. Then put your red dot back on and realize that red dot sights were not made for accurate distance shooting. They were made for short distances (room take downs, shooting under 50 yds, etc).

 

[MisterHelix]

If you just want to run your dot, you may choose to find a safe and established load, like those listed in a service rifle manual.

I don’t know about the TMK’s, but I bet there’s a ton of data on standard 77’s.

Every handload doesn’t have to be a custom worked-up masterpiece.

Be safe and stuff.