4D Reamer Rental bad experience

[4DRentals]

So what do you charge a customer for a damaged, 'one-off reamer' from an 'estate sale' or 'retired gunsmith' and where did you buy them?

A popular on-line auction house perhaps?

One more for the road!

Sorry I did not see this earlier. Charges are always handled on a per tool basis. The absolute worst case scenario is that we charge what is the listed deposit value for the tool in the price books we include with every order.

The deposit value is the most out of pocket maximum per tool that we would charge for any given tool. Otherwise charges vary per tool. I am not trying to make money on tool replacement, again I think it would be rather silly to risk my customer base when replacing damaged tools by trying to eak out a few extra dollars.

When we buy estate sales or retired shops they start more or less the same, a party responsible for the tools contacts us and asks if we want to buy them. We explain the process, we examine the tools make an offer and go from there.

Generally though no, we do not buy tools off auction sites. because we can't inspect the tools in person prior too, we do not like to do so.

 

[DShortt]

One more for the road!

Sorry I did not see this earlier. Charges are always handled on a per tool basis. The absolute worst case scenario is that we charge what is the listed deposit value for the tool in the price books we include with every order.

The deposit value is the most out of pocket maximum per tool that we would charge for any given tool. Otherwise charges vary per tool. I am not trying to make money on tool replacement, again I think it would be rather silly to risk my customer base when replacing damaged tools by trying to eak out a few extra dollars.

When we buy estate sales or retired shops they start more or less the same, a party responsible for the tools contacts us and asks if we want to buy them. We explain the process, we examine the tools make an offer and go from there.

Generally though no, we do not buy tools off auction sites. because we can't inspect the tools in person prior too, we do not like to do so.

OK then.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[4DRentals]

@4DRentals

@4DRentals
I will post your email response to me here if you wish. I was going to however I pulled it as I don't have your permission.

But anyways this was my response to Dewain regarding my rental.


Hello Dewain

I appreciate the response and for transparency sake figured I would respond here. (I have not responded to your email fyi. I will follow up however figured might as well here for all too) I'm not someone who is looking to hurt anyone's business especially one which is USA based. So I don't come on here posting negativity unless I feel it was warranted.

With that said I feel like this could have easily been handled differently from the beginning and most likely lead to a different outcome. My response to your email regarding the damage and small photo snippet was something to the extent that the reamer didn't look chipped or burnt but possibly corroded. (Maybe not exact words here but close. I requested additional photos of the entire reamer / caliber etc because IMO the pic just didn't seem to make sense. Pics would have allowed me to see the correlation to this damage and at least a .308 reamer. This was my attempt to weed out a possible mix up or even fraud which in this case I don't feel was unwarranted. (For transparency I didn't say anything about fraud however I didn't expect push back regarding pics either).

As noted on here I don't think I'm the only person who saw that pic and thought WTF. I stand by my statement that based on the pic provided alone it didn't make sense for several reasons. Most of those reasons have been mentioned by others and myself so no sense going through all that. I made what I feel is a simple request for additional pics to show the entire reamer etc. When that request was denied red flags started flying and here we are.

The response which I do not believe was made by you was what I feel is in question. IMO it was just pretty shitty and caused most of this. I made what by most standards is a pretty simple request when someone is trying to claim additional $$ for a damaged item. (The actual response is above in the thread) Essentially I was told to pound sand, you all see a lot of tools and this is consistent with people who screw up. On top of this you all track via serial numbers and make up my mind how much I want to pay. The end.

Okay I get it. I'm sure you see plenty of screwed up rental tools. I mean hell I'm sure someone has tried to chamber a rifle with a Dewalt drill. I don't think this is one of those situations where the reamer looks like it was used in that manor and would warrant such a quick shut up and pay response.

I agree that even an experienced gunsmith will break a tool etc at some point. I am definitely not an experienced smith however is even more reason I found the thought of over heating the reamer more perplexing. I go SLOWWWWW painfully slow and dang near use a full bottle of fluid when cutting a chamber. I want to ensure my sad shooting isn't made worse by a shitty chamber. I even questioned myself and pulled out the one and only reamer I own to see if I had damaged it in the 3 separate times I've used it. No such damage shown and I've done each chamber the same.

So from my point of view nothing was adding up. I have a super small pic that seems off and others agree. I cant get additional pics because obviously I screwed up and there is a serial number which I cant trace back to anything. (I don't believe you all provide a serial number upon ordering)

With that said I don't think I am in the minority based on multiple responses here that I'm out of line in my thinking.

However you did provide pics which is mainly what I was after. (100% honest here I haven't had a chance to look at them) So I'm good. I think going forward though if possible it would be wise to at least provide the serial number in the order. Yeah probably a pain but if you cant provide pics on these occasions it provides some reassurance that its legit. Just my thoughts.

The offer from you was to either pay to resharpen or buy the reamer and receive the damaged item. Ill offer to allow you to choose whichever is better for your business. Not sure which is faster for you all. I can have it resharpened at a later date and keep it or just allow you all to resharpen and I'll pay the bill.

Howdy @Axkiker our stance always remains the same for on-going customer business we only discuss with the client "behind closed doors" unless expressly told and giver permission otherwise. I am firm believer in the right to privacy and would want the same if the shoe was on the other foot.

That being said, I am absolutely here to be transparent you are more than welcome to share my email if you would like.

For your comment here I want you to know I have read it, I will be making sure my staff reads it tomorrow, and we will move forward from there. I do want to thank you very much for your response today I appreciate it very much.

 

[Axkiker]

FYI I tried to view the pics but they are in Dropbox which requires a trial subscription. I ain't got the energy so if someone on your staff could post them for the world to see.

 

[Sniperhandle]

Just a word of advice

Axkiker​

You would be money ahead to not ask for the reamer back hoping to resharpen it, A re-sharp these days costs pretty close to that of a new reamer, So you would have a lot of money tied up in it.

And they mark the reamer "Re-Sharp" usually, So any resale value would be diminished.

Buy yourself a reamer and spec it out the way you want to have it made. Contact my buddy Lance Humbert @ JGS he will draw you up what you need.

 

[Axkiker]

Just a word of advice

Axkiker​

You would be money ahead to not ask for the reamer back hoping to resharpen it, A re-sharp these days costs pretty close to that of a new reamer, So you would have a lot of money tied up in it.

Buy yourself a reamer and spec it out the way you want to have it made. Contact my buddy Lance Humbert @ JGS he will draw you up what you need.

Thanks for that info. Im definitely not experienced in this sort of thing. Looks like it will be a learning aka lighter wallet lesson HAHAHAHAH

 

[Sniperhandle]

When they do a re-sharp they move everything back and basically grind a new finish reamer. I would imagine you just aren't getting charged for the reamer blank. They still have to do a setup so it takes the same amount of time.

 

[4DRentals]

FYI I tried to view the pics but they are in Dropbox which requires a trial subscription. I ain't got the energy so if someone on your staff could post them for the world to see.

That is good to know, they assured us they would viewable to folks without a subscription. But I am not terribly surprised. I will see what I can do from home. Otherwise I will have them posted first thing in the morning.

Thank you for letting me know about the drop box subscription. we will be cancelling our plan, I have no intention of forcing people to sign up for things extra.

EDIT: It looks like I will need to post the pictures in the morning, I do not have access to that account from here.

 

[4DRentals]

Here are the photos that I sent to @Axkiker yesterday.

These were the as requested photos of nothing cut down to make it clearer.
I will have the video of the whole tool posted when it is done processing.

I am unsure in what order these pictures will be posted but the pictures of the tool on my desk show the tube as it is received with the serial number and the marking on the shank.

(I guess I do know now I can only attach 6 items at a time there will be a second post with the rest)

 

[4DRentals]

Here are the other pictures.

 

[4DRentals]

Looks like youtube has finished it's processing.

The video is in 4K if you have a monitor capable of.

 

[Sniperhandle]

The pics were not very good, But the video is. I realize you are busy, But sending this to the OP when he asked for more pics would have satisfied him and put his mind at ease about being charged without any real proof other than a strange looking photo you sent him the first time. This could have been resolved days ago and saved you time and frustration.

Until you posted the video, I still wasn't happy with the pics. The pics of the reamer were pretty blurry. The video is high quality and shows what he wanted to see. I think he was reasonable with you, And I think you have responded pretty well without being argumentative and I respect you for that.

 

[ELR LVR]

The video is more conclusive, The pics at first to me made it seem as though only
One facet / one flute on the shoulder was damaged
The Video Shows every facet of the shoulder is damaged/dulled, chipped.
---
I would like to post something for the "uninitiated here"
I know this is not the issue, but a bit of advice for everyone who does not chamber often....
And this is what I do and all my reamers look brand new even after multiple chamberings
---
it looks to me like someone did not pull the reamer out after advancing every .040-.050 thou
OR kept advancing more than .050" at a time.
and clear the chips, blow out the barrel, blow off the reamer, re-apply oil
It does not hurt anything to clear more often,
it does not hurt anything to apply oil to the reamer BEFORE re-inserting back into the barrel
it does hurt to try and go just a little bit further, say if you're almost done, but dont clear the chips.
----
BUT this could have happened from the reamer hitting a hard spot as well???
I have not encountered that but the way I hold my reamers is with a tiny 3/8 wrench and by hand
this way I can "Feel" how the reamer is cutting while I advance
If a guy holds the reamer with a solid hard metal device such as a drill chuck ..you will not get sensitive feedback say if you hit a hard spot.
----
UNLIKE a drill bit----which is spiraled and pulls chips out by design
The flutes themselves on a reamer do not allow a whole lot of clearance in between for chips to build up and will quickly start to become compacted in between them....Compacted chips in the flutes can slip over the edge if you pull back slightly then readvance, keep pressure on the reamer until your machine stops spinning...then withdraw so that chips dont roll over the sharp cutting edge.
Once you advance in and cut .050----they are packed already
Stop
Clear them
---
those with a flushing system, I would imagine need no advice, and their process would be slightly different allowing for more reamer advance before pulling and checking.
---
Similar deal with an engine or other tools that rotate.
One thing I explain to my customers in my field with engines when someone complains their newer machine has died, and this is to get it through to them to Service BEFORE THEY think they should...
It does not Hurt to change the Oil TOO OFTEN
it does hurt to do the opposite.
---
Same with the reamer, it does not hurt to inspect and clear the chips too often.

 

[Fudzy]

The pics were not very good, But the video is. I realize you are busy, But sending this to the OP when he asked for more pics would have satisfied him and put his mind at ease about being charged without any real proof other than a strange looking photo you sent him the first time. This could have been resolved days ago and saved you time and frustration.

Until you posted the video, I still wasn't happy with the pics. The pics of the reamer were pretty blurry. The video is high quality and shows what he wanted to see. I think he was reasonable with you, And I think you have responded pretty well without being argumentative and I respect you for that.

Hey, the thumbnails were not great. I had to be logged in to expand them in a viewer. They are actually very clear once expanded. Just a heads up for passers by.

 

[4DRentals]

The pics were not very good, But the video is. I realize you are busy, But sending this to the OP when he asked for more pics would have satisfied him and put his mind at ease about being charged without any real proof other than a strange looking photo you sent him the first time. This could have been resolved days ago and saved you time and frustration.

Until you posted the video, I still wasn't happy with the pics. The pics of the reamer were pretty blurry. The video is high quality and shows what he wanted to see. I think he was reasonable with you, And I think you have responded pretty well without being argumentative and I respect you for that.

The thumbnails do not do the stills any real justice and you do have to open them to see the full quality. They are taken on the same camera as the video, just at standard 1080 resolution compared to 4K on the video.

The photos on my desk were never intended to show the damage, only the information that was being requested in the thread here.

I appreciate the honest feedback, and I am glad that the video was helpful. We understand that conversations around damaged tools are never going to be a comfortable topic, we do the best we can and will look at what we can improve upon moving forward.

 

[WSnyder]

Looks like youtube has finished it's processing.

The video is in 4K if you have a monitor capable of.

That reamer got cooked and ruined all of the shoulder cutting edges. My assumption is there was some dwell time/insufficient pressure while reaming during the operation where some work hardening of the barrel happened. When the process resumed, cutting through the hard spot cooked the tool.

 

[Will Henry]

Who knows? I do not. I had a reamer which was not hard enough and was turned down by a chromoly barrel. I would have noticed the damage on the reamer in question, while chambering, and stopped and made a call. I have had a couple of reamers (more than a couple, now that I think on it) from a particular maker which would not cut and a few which started cutting poorly after only 3 or 4 chambers. I have Henriksen reamers which have cut 30. I don't rent reamers, but I think it's a valuable service for those who do, and not easy for the provider. WH

 

[Sniperhandle]

That reamer got cooked and ruined all of the shoulder cutting edges. My assumption is there was some dwell time/insufficient pressure while reaming during the operation where some work hardening of the barrel happened. When the process resumed, cutting through the hard spot cooked the tool.

As I said early on, A reamer that is being ran too slow with not enough inward pressure will dull quickly. I don't know the OP's setups or equipt.

But this thread has come to a satifactory conclusion.

I will also add, Evidentially it is not very accurate to measure an angle on a screen. And I was wrong on my take on that.

 

[ELR LVR]

That reamer got cooked and ruined all of the shoulder cutting edges. My assumption is there was some dwell time/insufficient pressure while reaming during the operation where some work hardening of the barrel happened. When the process resumed, cutting through the hard spot cooked the tool.

My thinking as well.
too slow and not enough pressure
The tool needs to be making chips.
Not sitting against a spinning surface

 

[ELR LVR]

@4DRentals

I agree that even an experienced gunsmith will break a tool etc at some point. I am definitely not an experienced smith however is even more reason I found the thought of over heating the reamer more perplexing. I go SLOWWWWW painfully slow and dang near use a full bottle of fluid when cutting a chamber. I want to ensure my sad shooting isn't made worse by a shitty chamber.

Sorry to the OP , but as soon as I read this in post #78, I thought. "thats nearly an admission of guilt"
and I figured somebody doesn't understand exactly (emphasis on EXACTLY, moreso than in general)
...what the opposite end of the spectrum of going to fast too hard is
---
again no offense man, lesson to be learned but
going to slow can create more heat...than pushing in and cutting
---
Painfully slow
Can very well be the beginning of one of the 3 criteria to be met for cold welding/friction welding
Cold welding (or solid-state contact bonding) occurs when:
two clean, solid pieces of metal fuse together at the atomic level without melting or the application of heat.
heat, clean, pressure
the very slight barely touching pressure will, create heat, push the oil away
starting the process of galling which is trying to weld itself to the parent metal.
since it is spinning it merely rips away the cutting edge, resulting in Dulling.
Very often.....and this is counterintuitive for non-machinists....but very often the answer to many issues is
MORE tool pressure, or rather a Higher Feed rate ...Not Less
such as chattering or cutting when heat induced work hardening can result
---
An example of this criteria would be:
While the reamer is cutting, suddenly stop feeding in without turning the machine off
While everything is still spinning
To Turn around real quick to sip your coffee, then turn back around and continue feeding in
That moment of the tool just sitting there doing nothing....will damage it
---
Is it possible. the OP was merely trying to be TOO CAREFUL
because he was using somebody elses reamer....and it bit him for doing so?