Hey everyone, I have a stupid question... I'm just starting out reloading .45 ACP and I'm having trouble with setting up the dies. I have RCBS carbide dies with the roll crimp seating die. Can someone please tell me how to set up the dies, especially for the seating and roll crimp. I thought I made it but it seems that the rounds are way too tight in the chamber and they don't cycle correctly. I haven't loaded a live round yet, I'm just trying to make reference case so I know they load correctly. Help me please!!!
.45 ACP reloading
- Thread starter ordnancemarine
- Start date
You should not roll crimp .45 ACP. A gentle taper crimp is all that's required. Although a .45 will shoot with sloppy headspace, cartridge held to the bolt face by the extractor, they shoot much better when headspacing on the case mouth. In order to do that, some case mouth must exceed the bullet diameter. Dump the roll crimp and get a taper crimp die.
Outrider27
Gold $$ Contributor
Another help is to separate the bullet seating and crimping steps, which you will be set up for when you get the taper crimp die. Just make sure you set up the seater die so that you don't get into the crimp portion. 4 die pistol sets are sold to allow this; if you use a 3 die approach, the bullet is still moving downward when the crimp begins, which unnecessarily deforms the bullet.
I've been loading & heavily shooting 45 ACP in competition since 1960, and all of the above is the one and only answer: get rid of the roll crimp, use a taper crimp die, crimp after bullet seating with a seperate die. Actually, all you want to do is straighten out the slight bell you would have put on the case mouth prior to bullet seating.
Adjust the sizing die so it just touch's the top of the shellholder. You want to size all of the case, as close as possible to the extractor groove.
Suggest you remove the barrel, be sure the chamber is clean, and try dropping a loaded round into the chamber. It should drop in smoothly with no hangups & the case head (the surface where the ident stamping is located) should be even with the rear edge of the barrel extension that contacts the face of the slide, or just slightly below that. If your brass is too long, and your chamber length is too short (that combination does occur sometimes), the rear of the case will not be flush & the slide will not fully go into battery.
Another thought: Depending on your loads, the proper recoil spring is required for reliable functioning. Loads too light (recoiling) with a too heavy spring ( 14+ pounds) and you will have feed malfunctions. Loads too heavy (in recoil) with too light of a spring & you will be battering all the contact and lockup surfaces. A good clue that you have the proper recoil spring for your loads: When firing the last shot the slide will lock open. If it closes on the empty chamber, you are right on the edge of a too heavy recoil spring. Replace with a lighter one. Wolff makes excellent springs for the 45 Auto.
A feed malfunction will usually be caused by a faulty magazine, an ejection problem by the ammo.
An excellent book about the 45 Auto is the one published by Jerry Kuhnhausen titled "The Colt .45 Automatic, a shop manual". Available from Midway & others. This publication is packed with closeup detailed photos & descriptions of everything you could possibly need to know about the 1911 45 Auto.
Adjust the sizing die so it just touch's the top of the shellholder. You want to size all of the case, as close as possible to the extractor groove.
Suggest you remove the barrel, be sure the chamber is clean, and try dropping a loaded round into the chamber. It should drop in smoothly with no hangups & the case head (the surface where the ident stamping is located) should be even with the rear edge of the barrel extension that contacts the face of the slide, or just slightly below that. If your brass is too long, and your chamber length is too short (that combination does occur sometimes), the rear of the case will not be flush & the slide will not fully go into battery.
Another thought: Depending on your loads, the proper recoil spring is required for reliable functioning. Loads too light (recoiling) with a too heavy spring ( 14+ pounds) and you will have feed malfunctions. Loads too heavy (in recoil) with too light of a spring & you will be battering all the contact and lockup surfaces. A good clue that you have the proper recoil spring for your loads: When firing the last shot the slide will lock open. If it closes on the empty chamber, you are right on the edge of a too heavy recoil spring. Replace with a lighter one. Wolff makes excellent springs for the 45 Auto.
A feed malfunction will usually be caused by a faulty magazine, an ejection problem by the ammo.
An excellent book about the 45 Auto is the one published by Jerry Kuhnhausen titled "The Colt .45 Automatic, a shop manual". Available from Midway & others. This publication is packed with closeup detailed photos & descriptions of everything you could possibly need to know about the 1911 45 Auto.
been shooting 45 for 58years and the statements above about taper crimp and recoil spring are dead on,
one additional point, if using mixed or unknown ammo, the case length is critical as the case head spaces on the mouth of the case, if cases differ in length they do not function the same, be sure all are simular in length or trim to get them so.
Bob
one additional point, if using mixed or unknown ammo, the case length is critical as the case head spaces on the mouth of the case, if cases differ in length they do not function the same, be sure all are simular in length or trim to get them so.
Bob
Bob: Regarding trimming 45 brass: Just like we measure headspace & chamber O.A.L. in our rifles, the chamber length of a 45 auto can and should also be measured. The barrel must be removed, chamber made really clean, and the depth gauge end of a dial caliper used. Extend the depth gauge a little over an inch, slide it into the chamber 'til it hits the forward limits of the chamber, keep pushing on the caliper body until the end of slide makes contact with the rear surface of the barrel hood, the part that contacts the face of the slide. In most of the barrels that I've measured that length will be anywhere from .900" to as much as .920".
Then measure the lengths of the brass being used. The vast majority of those I've checked are .890" to around .895", way shorter than chamber length. With a roundnose hardball bullet load or jacketed wadcutter the case head will be as much as 1/32" forward of the chamber extension on the hood overhang. Plenty of length to permit the loaded round to move forward and to the rear when the slide is in battery & the pistol ready to fire.
That's one of the advantages with reloads, the bullet can be seated out far enough (as long as magazine length is not compromised) so the shoulder of the bullet is making contact in the front of the chamber and the case head is flush with the edge of the barrel hood extension. In effect, the cartridge is locked up tight front to rear. Also results in better more consistant ignition when the primer is hit.
Regarding case length: From the Dec. 1992 issue of "The American Rifleman", page 71 in the "In my experience" column, an article by John E. Giles, a custom pistolsmith who built my 45 Autos, and those of thousands of others: "One was that a slight difference in case length made little difference in the degree of crimp". Speaking of taper versus roll crimp. He also mentions that cases last a lot longer with a taper crimp, since the brass is not being "worked" as much as it is with a roll crimp.
Regarding brass life: I lost most of my 45 brass when the rims became so battered that the case would not slide smoothly into the shellholder. At that point they were tossed. Seldom had splits in the case mouths before the battered rims made them unusable.
Then measure the lengths of the brass being used. The vast majority of those I've checked are .890" to around .895", way shorter than chamber length. With a roundnose hardball bullet load or jacketed wadcutter the case head will be as much as 1/32" forward of the chamber extension on the hood overhang. Plenty of length to permit the loaded round to move forward and to the rear when the slide is in battery & the pistol ready to fire.
That's one of the advantages with reloads, the bullet can be seated out far enough (as long as magazine length is not compromised) so the shoulder of the bullet is making contact in the front of the chamber and the case head is flush with the edge of the barrel hood extension. In effect, the cartridge is locked up tight front to rear. Also results in better more consistant ignition when the primer is hit.
Regarding case length: From the Dec. 1992 issue of "The American Rifleman", page 71 in the "In my experience" column, an article by John E. Giles, a custom pistolsmith who built my 45 Autos, and those of thousands of others: "One was that a slight difference in case length made little difference in the degree of crimp". Speaking of taper versus roll crimp. He also mentions that cases last a lot longer with a taper crimp, since the brass is not being "worked" as much as it is with a roll crimp.
Regarding brass life: I lost most of my 45 brass when the rims became so battered that the case would not slide smoothly into the shellholder. At that point they were tossed. Seldom had splits in the case mouths before the battered rims made them unusable.
I progressive load 45acp for 4 different guns. I skip any crimp as well. I seat, and last station is a Lee Factory Crimp die with the seater portion backed out. It basically sizes the od of the whole case. Chambers in any gun then.
You do have to pay attention to depth as stated above or they will jam in 1911 style feedramp.
You do have to pay attention to depth as stated above or they will jam in 1911 style feedramp.
Not to take away from post, manuals always list max length on case what is reasonable min length you can use? Also had a friend using crimp die, loaned him my taper die he still wanted bear down on case. Like last post stated just need to straighten out case edge flare use light touch pressure.
Get a taper crimp die and set up the case mouth to have a diameter around .469" to .471 " and if reloading semi-wadcutters make sure you leave just a small amount of the bullet base (the part that is .451") protruding above the case mouth for feeding purposes.
Also, make sure you use good quality magazines.
HTH
Also, make sure you use good quality magazines.
HTH
hotrodlouie: Take the shortest case you can find, load it as you normally would, including applying the taper crimp at the setting you are using for all cases, then look closely at the mouth of the case. If it still has a flare, then it's too short for "normal" loading. You could re-adjust the crimp die & re-crimp, but the problem then could be that the cartridge would seat too deeply in the chamber. When the primer is hit by the firing pin, the loaded round would then be free to move forward in the chamber, with a mis-fire resulting. No different than when fire-forming 223's in a 223 Ackley Improved chamber, the cartridge is too short for the chamber. Guess what I'm trying to say is I don't believe there is any minimum case length. It's whatever works in your chamber, and with the amount of crimp you are using.
Or to prove a point, remove the barrel & drop the short cased round into the chamber, then try pushing it deeper. Note the amount of overhang between the case rim & the barrel hood extension. It should not be more than a couple of thousandths.
Your friend who is over crimping is doing the same thing. The mouth of the case is no longer making contact with the front of the chamber, so it's free to seat overly deep in the chamber= mis-fires.
Under perfect conditions the cartridge will be locked up in the chamber, unable to move foreward or back when the slide is in battery. But, that would only work reliably as long as the chamber is clean. If you're using lead bullets bits of lead shavings, bullet lube & unburned powder will build up at the chamber mouth and the cartridge will not fully seat, slide does not go fully into battery, and a failure to fire results. To prevent that you need a little wiggle room. That's not much of a problem if using jacketed bullets rather than lead.
We do have the advantage in the 1911 (don't know about other 45 autos) of a firing pin that is free to move forward a great deal. Try pushing it forward using a small blade screwdriver & you'll see how far it extends out of the face of the slide, so they are tolerant of a little slop in the fit of the cartridge in the chamber.
Or to prove a point, remove the barrel & drop the short cased round into the chamber, then try pushing it deeper. Note the amount of overhang between the case rim & the barrel hood extension. It should not be more than a couple of thousandths.
Your friend who is over crimping is doing the same thing. The mouth of the case is no longer making contact with the front of the chamber, so it's free to seat overly deep in the chamber= mis-fires.
Under perfect conditions the cartridge will be locked up in the chamber, unable to move foreward or back when the slide is in battery. But, that would only work reliably as long as the chamber is clean. If you're using lead bullets bits of lead shavings, bullet lube & unburned powder will build up at the chamber mouth and the cartridge will not fully seat, slide does not go fully into battery, and a failure to fire results. To prevent that you need a little wiggle room. That's not much of a problem if using jacketed bullets rather than lead.
We do have the advantage in the 1911 (don't know about other 45 autos) of a firing pin that is free to move forward a great deal. Try pushing it forward using a small blade screwdriver & you'll see how far it extends out of the face of the slide, so they are tolerant of a little slop in the fit of the cartridge in the chamber.
Caliche Pit
Silver $$ Contributor
I use a Lee Factory Crimp and load progressively also. Lots and lots of 45's. The factory crimp die in my opinion is the best thing to ever come from Lee.
It does size the OD of each case to minimum SAAMI specs, and I have not found a gun that they don't fit/feed through all the time. Just my 2 cents.
It does size the OD of each case to minimum SAAMI specs, and I have not found a gun that they don't fit/feed through all the time. Just my 2 cents.
I am relatively new to reloading and my mentor suggested I buy Dillon dies for my handgun reloads.
They are reasonably priced, produce a great load and can be used with their progressive press down the road.
My loads have been shot in a Glock, Sig and a Kimber and they have worked well, cycled well, have been accurate.
I use 5.2 grains of Winchester 231, Winchester brass(some are once and twice fired), Ranier 230 gr. round nose, Winchester large pistol primers. This load is easy on the brass as well. I did not fire them through the chrono so I can not give an accurate FPS.
They are reasonably priced, produce a great load and can be used with their progressive press down the road.
My loads have been shot in a Glock, Sig and a Kimber and they have worked well, cycled well, have been accurate.
I use 5.2 grains of Winchester 231, Winchester brass(some are once and twice fired), Ranier 230 gr. round nose, Winchester large pistol primers. This load is easy on the brass as well. I did not fire them through the chrono so I can not give an accurate FPS.
I use old RCBS sets from the eighties for .38 Special and .45 ACP in a Dillon RL 450. The .45 set works fine with a taper crimp. I have a Dillon set for .38 Super and it is nicely made and works very well. Dillon dies have some good features and, if buying new, I would probably buy Dillon.
ridgeway
Silver $$ Contributor
Dillon dies do not come with a expander die. The expanding of a pistol case takes place on the powder station with a case specific powder funnel that gets inserted to a powder die in which a Dillon powder measure clamps to. This is usually bundled with a caliber conversion for a Dillon press.
Dillon dies are definitely good, so if you are doing 45 on a single stage, keep in mind you will need an expander die. For single stage users, Lyman carbide is hard to beat.
Dillon dies are definitely good, so if you are doing 45 on a single stage, keep in mind you will need an expander die. For single stage users, Lyman carbide is hard to beat.
dskinner103: Winchester 231 is my favorite powder with jacketed bullets, and your charge is right in the middle of my favorite weight range. Still use Bullseye with cast lead bullets, but don't use those much anymore. They leave a lot of dirt to cleanup with the greased/ lubed bullets, and they are now almost as costly as jacketed.
Always disliked having to use military G.I. Hardball (230 gr.FMJ roundnose) in the Service Pistol Match's since they quickly washed out the rifling in as little as 3500 rounds fired. The military copper jackets are very thick and "hard", so they were destructive to barrels. The built pistols also loosened up at around 5000 rounds & required a re-build, but what do military team members care? Just turn it in to the armorer and draw a new one.
The jackets on commercial bullets being made now (and with the high cost of copper) are paper thin so not nearly as destructive to the barrels.
And an added note: it's been my experience that a 45 ACP using lead wadcutter ammo will have an accuracy life of anywhere between 22000 and 25000 rounds fired before it will start to loosen up and need rebuilt. One of my 1911's has been re-built 3 times. A re-build will involve the fitting of a new barrel bushing, and tighten up the slide on the frame, and it's good to go for another 22 to 25000. With lead wadcutters, the barrel never needs replaced. The critical wear parts like the sear, hammer, disconnector are very hard on Colt built ( and others like Kimber, etc.) 45's, but many of the off-shore, gun show parts, at bargain prices, are just plain junk. Again, you get what you pay for.
Always disliked having to use military G.I. Hardball (230 gr.FMJ roundnose) in the Service Pistol Match's since they quickly washed out the rifling in as little as 3500 rounds fired. The military copper jackets are very thick and "hard", so they were destructive to barrels. The built pistols also loosened up at around 5000 rounds & required a re-build, but what do military team members care? Just turn it in to the armorer and draw a new one.
The jackets on commercial bullets being made now (and with the high cost of copper) are paper thin so not nearly as destructive to the barrels.
And an added note: it's been my experience that a 45 ACP using lead wadcutter ammo will have an accuracy life of anywhere between 22000 and 25000 rounds fired before it will start to loosen up and need rebuilt. One of my 1911's has been re-built 3 times. A re-build will involve the fitting of a new barrel bushing, and tighten up the slide on the frame, and it's good to go for another 22 to 25000. With lead wadcutters, the barrel never needs replaced. The critical wear parts like the sear, hammer, disconnector are very hard on Colt built ( and others like Kimber, etc.) 45's, but many of the off-shore, gun show parts, at bargain prices, are just plain junk. Again, you get what you pay for.
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.