338 Lapua at Very Long Range in Afghanistan

[Broncazonk]

From Wiki: "...non-C.I.P. conforming British military issue overpressure .338 Lapua Magnum cartridges with a 91.4 mm (3.60 in) overall length, loaded with 16.2-gram (250 gr) LockBase B408 very-low-drag bullets were used in November 2009 by British sniper Corporal of Horse (CoH) Craig Harrison to establish a new record for the longest confirmed sniper kill in combat, at a range of 2,475 m (2,707 yd)."

I don't doubt the record (the yardage) I'm just trying to figure out how CoH Harrison made the shot. Assuming the "non-CIP ... overpressure" .338 Lapua round yielded a generous 3,100 fps at the muzzle, (nominal velocity 2850 fps) the 250 gr. bullet had a G7 BC of .314 (250 gr. MatchKing) and he made the shot at 9,000 feet in elevation at 45-degrees, the bullet does not arrive supersonically--it's not even close. JBM has the bullet going subsonic at 2,200 yards which is 500-yards short of the target.

According to Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Harrison_(sniper) the shot was made at 3,422 feet in elevation, so all things being equal, the bullet went subsonic at 1800-yards which is 900-yards short of the target, and when the bullet arrived, it was only going 859 fps.

According to Wiki (which used slightly different numbers "The external ballistics software program JBM Ballistics predicts that the bullets of British high pressure .338 Lapua Magnum cartridges using 16.2 g (250 gr) Lapua LockBase B408 bullets fired at 936 m/s (3,071 ft/s) muzzle velocity under International Standard Atmosphere conditions at 1,043 m (3,422 ft) elevation (air density ρ = 1.069 kg/m3) and assuming a flat fire scenario (a situation where the shooting and target positions are at equal elevation) and a 100 m (109 yd) zero (the distance at which the rifle is sighted in) arrive at 2,475 m (2,707 yd) distance after approximately 6.017 seconds flight time at 251.8 m/s (826 ft/s) velocity and have dropped 120.95 m (396.8 ft) or in angular units 48.9 milliradian (168 MOA) on their way.

He walked the range in with nine (9) rounds, the tenth (10) was on the money, but how did he do it? The bullet was unstable for 900-yards and he wasn't even in the scope--he would have needed 46 mil of adjustment to get there--and the S&B PMII 5-25x56 don't got it.

Bronc

 

[shooter63]

they must have tied up the confirmed kill or he or she was blind you know if the dust kicked up so close to you you wouldnt just stand there looking around after 9 shots i dont know about some of these confirmed kill at that distance anyway shooter63

 

[barnesuser28]

He actually had 2 confirmed kills at that distance. There were 2 taliban machinegunners laying prone and he hit one on his 10th shot and the other on his 11th shot. Thats pretty impressive!! I shot at 1840 yards with my 338 Lapua and 280 grain Barnes LRX that goes subsonic at around 1500 yards IIRC and it shot better than i could.

 

[LHSmith]

I could be wrong on this, but all my info came from the History Channels' documentary on snipers. It was said that for the previous record kill, the Canadian sniper (Furlong) made his shot using a .50 cal BMG ....but did NOT use the Canadian issued ammo, but US issue...which he keep the rounds as hot as possible in the sun. So, I wouldn't trust WIKI to get the facts straight.

 

[Rtheurer]

Smith
Your speaking of the old record. The young Brit corpal restablished with a longer distance and used a 338 LM.

Two hits back to back... Not a fluke. Pretty impressive indeed.

RT

 

[MrMajestic]

rocks don't run......but hey, they don't wear windflags on their head either LOL

Tom

;D, that there is funny!

 

[barnesuser28]

rocks don't run......but hey, they don't wear windflags on their head either LOL

Tom

;D, that there is funny!

I didnt get the wind flag part untill now, LOL

 

[XTR]

Some bullets can transition from supersonic and remain stable, As I understand the heavies in the the 338, and the 50BMG are two that can. I've never used one, just what I've read. I know that the big long 535 grain bullets I shoot from my 45-70 can do it and reach to 1000 yards with consistent accuracy. They start out just barely super sonic.

As for just over 850FPS, a 45ACP shooting issue 230gr round ball has about the same MV, and I know for a fact I don't want to get hit with one. Plenty of ouch still there at the target end of the ride.

 

[M14AMU]

So what you're saying is the bullet is 'unstable' because it's subsonic!

Hmmm.....many of the bullets I've fired are subsonic at 250 yards but they're quite accurate at 1000-1200 yards!!

 

[Broncazonk]

So what you're saying is the bullet is 'unstable' because it's subsonic!

Many (most) small caliber bullets destabilize to the point of random drifting as they pass from supersonic to subsonic flight.

Bronc

 

[XTR]

So what you're saying is the bullet is 'unstable' because it's subsonic!

Hmmm.....many of the bullets I've fired are subsonic at 250 yards but they're quite accurate at 1000-1200 yards!!

A lot of bullets will go wonky during the transition from super sonic to sub sonic. The classic is the 168SMK, shoot them to 600 yards and they are a great bullet, shoot them to 1000 and somewhere between 800 and 950 they forget where they were going and wander off in random directions.

 

[M14AMU]

So what you're saying is the bullet is 'unstable' because it's subsonic!

Hmmm.....many of the bullets I've fired are subsonic at 250 yards but they're quite accurate at 1000-1200 yards!!

A lot of bullets will go wonky during the transition from super sonic to sub sonic. The classic is the 168SMK, shoot them to 600 yards and they are a great bullet, shoot them to 1000 and somewhere between 800 and 950 they forget where they were going and wander off in random directions.

Yep! This was HIGHLY APPARENT when watching Service Rifles shooters trying to shoot the Farr Trophy Match at Camp Perry! Bullets would keyhole on impact! This persisted until I started making a 173 gr. lead-cored BTHP which I sold tons of to SR shooters. Made the USMC several thousand one year and they 'waxed' my old team (USAMTU) with them in the LR events at Perry! These were VLD design and shot extremely well to 1000...or beyond!

 

[Nomad47]

I hesitate to post this since the yardage is so short (in comparison to what is being discussed), but my grandson (now a Marine) shot & killed a groundhog at 880 yards using my 22-250 with 55 grain Nosler BTs. That bullet was definitely sub-sonic but it still killed the groundhog.

 

[dooley]

at our premier range in the UK the .338 Lapua round has been banned for approx 3 years now because we are told 2 young marine snipers managed to fire a number of rounds over the backstops at 1000 yds, after these backstops there is a further 4000 yds fall out area, their rounds managed to take chunks out of the brickwork out of houses that are situated at the end of this fall out area, so total distance from firing points to houses is 5000 yds, ballistic tables will probably say this is not possible, but it apparently is with british made Radway Green ammuition, they also make their own bullets, I,m annoyed because I had just bought a ,338 one week before the ban and never got a chance to use it at bisley which is only 20 miles from my house, needless to say I sold it at a loss. dooley

 

[Minesweeper3433]

So I asked an acquaintance about how they would get dope for shots like this. They take the trucks out side the base and park them behind the 1800meter T-walls to spot the 3000 meter target. They can verify drop charts out to 3000 meters here when shooting from the top of the hesko walls around the base. Also on a good day using a 45x spotting scope you can see herders at 10 miles. The air is extremely clear and they have guns that can and do shoot these distances. I asked about what happens when it goes subsonic and friend said "so". I guess a 338 bullet makes a 338 hold no matter the distance. Rifles include several 300winmag a few 338 lapua and 1 bolt action that shoots something resembling the 50bmg only different. The brass is stamped 50BMG but it isn't a 50BMG.

 

[esromvre]

After doing testing with the 300g Bergers at 2500. I can tell you, at my elevation the bullet makes the transsonic changeover quite well and hits stable.

 

[RDavies]

As for the more poplular bullets we use, I know the 7mm Berger VLD and Hybrid has no problems when going transonic, neither does the 210gn VLD in a 308. These retain good accuracy out to 2400yds (at 6600yd altitude). Im pretty sure I used a few 168gn 7mm VLDs as well at that range and they werent badly affected.

 

[Broncazonk]

This is what I do to get the maximum possible range out of my scope--a Schmidt and Bender PMII 10X. (The scope adjusts in cm’s and I only have 130 clicks up in one turn.) I shoot a 7-mm Remington Mag, 1-10” barrel, 154 gr. Hornady SST at 3050 fps MV at 1,000 feet in elevation.

Using JBM (or any external ballistic program) I’m out of adjustment (my 130 clicks) at 1325-yards with a total bullet drop of 615-inches at that range. To extend the range, I use the 5-Mil of drop I have in the scope by sighting on the top of the bottom post (it's 5-Mil from the crosshair down to the top of the post, see photo.)

So, for example, if I want to shoot 1500 yards that’s 923-inches of drop. (The rest of this paragraph was removed by Bronc because the methodology was incorrect. See the post by DM [immediately below] for the correct method.)

The moral of the story? Move to back to Wyoming, shoot at 7,000 feet in elevation, and then buy a .338 Lapua.

Bronc

 

[Broncazonk]

I suggest you stop looking at Drop and Inches, and use range to target in MOA or Mils.

Yep! That's the way. Thanks DM. I have a 200-yard zero, so at 1500-yards I'm at 17.1 Mil for a 922.6-inch bullet drop. (Backing into that: 3.6 x 15 x 17.1 = 923.4-inches, so it's right on the money.)

17.1 Mil - 5-Mil = 12.1 Mil to dial in, and that's 121 clicks!

Bronc

 

[Outrider27]

When Cpl. Harrison and his spotter were "sighting in", there was a good deal of activity in the area and they used objects in the general impact area to tweak their setup, not the actual target, but when they elected to go for the gunner, they knew they had what they needed (Harrison has also been quoted as saying that both light and wind conditions were as good as it gets in the field, basically), and the first shot on the gunner was all it took.

For what it's worth, according to the US Marine that related the details to me, Harrison actually made three one shot kills in that one action - the gunner, the helper when he stepped up to take the gunner's place, then the most amazing shot of all, the receiver of the machinegun itself, rendering it useless. Any way you cut it, Harrison and his spotter were an extroardinary team; there is certainly an element of luck shooting at those ranges, but shooters of that skill level help make some of their own luck.