338 Edge and ELR type cartridges

[bsumoba]

I have a load with 300gr hybrid OTMs in my 338 edge. It is doing about 2800 fps with 91.5gr H1000 and I am loaded fairly long (OAL is ~4.1"). I honestly did not go higher than 92 gr because I found a load so quickly around 91.5 gr, but I know I have much more case capacity.

Is anyone going higher with H1000? I will soon be working up 1/2 gr increments, but am wondering where people are seeing pressure signs.

Also, according to JBM, the 28 Nosler and 195s going 3100 fps seem to be ballistic equals to a 300gr OTM going 2900 fps. I just thought that was interesting.

 

[dkhunt14]

Bryan, you need to try some R33. We put it in a 338 Ultra IMP which is basically an Edge. We got 3000 with 300 Grain Berger Elites. The accuracy was good but he backed it down just a hair and the gun shot 5 inch 5 shot groups at 1000. Now this is a gun that was built like a 17 pound light gun. There is no pressure in his gun at 3000. Matt

 

[K redden]

Look on long range only. Lots of info there. Seems they are going a bit higher on some of there stuff. But I'd say you are in the ball park with your stuff. They also seem to like h1000 because it is so stable. My edge will only shoot 90g but seems to like it.

 

[dkhunt14]

Look on long range only. Lots of info there. Seems they are going a bit higher on some of there stuff. But I'd say you are in the ball park with your stuff. They also seem to like h1000 because it is so stable. My edge will only shoot 90g but seems to like it.

The R33 seemed to be fairly stable. I only shot it from 0 degrees to 40. At 1370 yards my clicks were the same at both temps. I shot H1000 in my Lapua IMP but the R33 shot more accurate at 1000 yards and did it with less pressure. I could only get 2970 with H1000 and went to 3070 and had no pressure. The H1000 off the benches at Williamsport shot around 7 to 8 inches. The R33 shot 4 to 5 inches. It did the same in my buddies 338 Ultra IMP. Matt

 

[bsumoba]

I would be happy with 2900 fps or around there. That would at least keep me hypothetically supersonic out to 2K.

I'll work up some loads and report back when I get to it.

 

[wedgy]

Shawn Carlock said he uses H1000 over RL33 because of the stability. The RL33 was giving him 30-40fps velocity changes over the changing seasons which can be a huge temperature swing in Idaho. I don't have that big of a temperature swing out west so I use RL33 but if I go over ~2850 I lose primer pockets on my RP brass(necked up 300 RUM) after 2 firings. I can get a little over 3000fps without pressure signs but I will run out of brass soon. I just got a batch of Bertram which everyone says they run faster loads and the pockets hold tight, and had the same issue with the RP as I did. Right now we are having one El Nino storm after another so not sure when I will get out between work and weather.

 

[dkhunt14]

Shawn Carlock said he uses H1000 over RL33 because of the stability. The RL33 was giving him 30-40fps velocity changes over the changing seasons which can be a huge temperature swing in Idaho. I don't have that big of a temperature swing out west so I use RL33 but if I go over ~2850 I lose primer pockets on my RP brass(necked up 300 RUM) after 2 firings. I can get a little over 3000fps without pressure signs but I will run out of brass soon. I just got a batch of Bertram which everyone says they run faster loads and the pockets hold tight, and had the same issue with the RP as I did. Right now we are having one El Nino storm after another so not sure when I will get out between work and weather.

 

[dkhunt14]

Is your gun throated out far enough? That will make pressure quick. I shot the RE33 with my 338 Lpaua IMP with a 300 grain Berger Elite at 2993. I put the gun on a rock at 1370 yards at 0 degrees. Shot and it was right there. I left the gun sit there and later in the day when it got to 40 degrees I shot again. The shot was right there. Within an inch or two. That is a forty degree swing and no elevation change. Matt

 

[dmoran]

^^^^ 1st hand, field tested results..... it don't get any better then that !.!.!

Thanks Matt
Donovan

 

[wedgy]

Matt, that would be stable enough for me too !
I think Shawn might be talking about 0 degrees in winter to 80 degrees in summer. I don't have that kind of temperature swing, but I'm sure he knows what works best for him.

 

[dkhunt14]

Matt, that would be stable enough for me too !
I think Shawn might be talking about 0 degrees in winter to 80 degrees in summer. I don't have that kind of temperature swing, but I'm sure he knows what works best for him.

You are probably correct. I never shoot my Lapua in Hot weather. It is a longrange hunting gun. I only tested and shot it 40 or below. I wanted it to be like hunting season. Matt

 

[fredo]

Is your gun throated out far enough? That will make pressure quick. I shot the RE33 with my 338 Lpaua IMP with a 300 grain Berger Elite at 2993. I put the gun on a rock at 1370 yards at 0 degrees. Shot and it was right there. I left the gun sit there and later in the day when it got to 40 degrees I shot again. The shot was right there. Within an inch or two. That is a forty degree swing and no elevation change. Matt

Sir,
What parameters, if any, did you change regarding atmospherics, between shots?

Did you use the same dope, or did you re-calculate based on temp. increase & barometrics?

Just asking, because where I shoot, experiencing a DA shift up up to 1K during a day is not uncommon. That change alone will cause my dope to change ~0.2mils @ 1350yds (215Hybrid @ 3148fps)

Did you re-calculate dope based on conditions, leaving velocity as a constant? Or, did you just shoot with the same dope for shooting @ 40 º as you did when it was 0 º ?

If the former, then that's a great indicator of a stable powder!
If the latter, then its quite possible that atmospherics could have skewed your observed results...

 

[dkhunt14]

The clicks were the same, no change of scope. When I was load testing at 1000 I tested 103, 104 and 105. The 103 load went about 4 inches low and was going 2950. The 104 load went 2993 and was even with the patch. The 105 load went 3043 and was even with the 104 load. I shot 4 shots each with colored bullets and shot them just as I would in a match. The 104 load and the 105 load had 7 of the 8 shots in 4.25 inches and one went a little high and made it 6 flat. I thought that was good accuracy and even though the chrono showed almost 50 feet per grain gain, those two loads shot at the same elevation. I figured it must of been a node. I shot the 104 load to hunt because I have the first generation Bergers that was reported to slump, especially when pushed over 3000 feet. It has been a great load for killing deer. Matt

 

[fredo]

Thanks for the quick reply.
1350yds, with no corrections for a 40 º temp swing, and didn't even measure air pressure deviation?

Based on the lack of pertinent data, I'd say your lack of POI shift between shots cannot prove RL-33 to be temp stable, or not. Need to account for the other variables, can't accept your conclusion, otherwise.

Great shooting! Just don't convince yourself of something that might not be reality. Need more data before isolating temp stability as a constant in the equation...

 

[gunnermhr]

Fredo, really! When an accomplished shooter like Matt post something I'm all ears, he actually does it, not read it in a book or hear at at the local gun shop. How can one argue about a 40 degree temp swing and have a couple inches change, I'd say it stable for the hunting conditions he's in. Maybe you should go try it your scientific method on the computer then sit side by side with Matt and see who hits the mark. My money's on Matt.
Mike

 

[wedgy]

Theoretically there should be a POI shift with a 40 degree swing but my bullets never quite seem to follow what the computer says and if he validated it...then it's valid.

 

[4xforfun]

2800 - 2850 seems to be the "sweet spot" with the Edge and H1000. The two I work with (mine and a friend of mine) were both chambered with my reamer giving us a long 4.08 OAL with the 300 Bergers. I am at 91 @ 2840 and his is at 92 and the same speed. So, with 30 inch tubes we can go faster, but the accuracy trumps speed in my world!! I have 7 firings on my Rem brass and the PP's are just starting to loosten a bit on my gun. The other has been running Bertrom brass with no PP issues (although the split neck thing still has me worried).

I was just starting to experement with RL 33 and my new batch of Bertrom brass, but got side tracked and never finished the load development. I only tried a couple of loads one day, but was testing at my usual 750 yards. I think that I hit some weather voodo, as the groups weren't great. To be fair....NOTHING shot well that day, but I figured that with an 800+ BC I could shoot through the mystery conditions.

Moral....you can't fool mother nature..she is a heartless b!t@h. I will start over again later.

 

[bsumoba]

Yea,

2800 - 2850 seems to be the "sweet spot" with the Edge and H1000. The two I work with (mine and a friend of mine) were both chambered with my reamer giving us a long 4.08 OAL with the 300 Bergers. I am at 91 @ 2840 and his is at 92 and the same speed. So, with 30 inch tubes we can go faster, but the accuracy trumps speed in my world!! I have 7 firings on my Rem brass and the PP's are just starting to loosten a bit on my gun. The other has been running Bertrom brass with no PP issues (although the split neck thing still has me worried).

I was just starting to experement with RL 33 and my new batch of Bertrom brass, but got side tracked and never finished the load development. I only tried a couple of loads one day, but was testing at my usual 750 yards. I think that I hit some weather voodo, as the groups weren't great. To be fair....NOTHING shot well that day, but I figured that with an 800+ BC I could shoot through the mystery conditions.

Moral....you can't fool mother nature..she is a heartless b!t@h. I will start over again later.

2800-2850 seems to be what I have read as well.

Maybe I'll look for the next node. My rounds are seated even farther than yours at ~4.10".

 

[fredo]

Fredo, really! When an accomplished shooter like Matt post something I'm all ears, he actually does it, not read it in a book or hear at at the local gun shop. How can one argue about a 40 degree temp swing and have a couple inches change, I'd say it stable for the hunting conditions he's in. Maybe you should go try it your scientific method on the computer then sit side by side with Matt and see who hits the mark. My money's on Matt.
Mike

First off, I don't know the man, from Adam. Was just commenting on the oddity of an ELR shooter drawing a conclusions without all of the available & representative data to support/refute it.

I get the part about defending a friend as being an "accomplished shooter". But at the same time, you assume I haven't experienced these shifts for myself? Or, anyone else, for that matter?
Are you aware to what degree (pun intended) atmospheric conditions can alter POI in ELR shooting?

Don't take my word for it.

Fire up your ballistics program and run dope for a 300 SMK @ 3000fps, distance 1350yds.
Adjust for pressure using Density Altitude.
Start with "0" as DA, and note correction to target
Adjust DA up to "800"ft, and note change in correction needed.

That shift in DA is quite common, and can very well occur during the course of a long shooting session.

It's real, it happens.

To that end, I'd challenge you to reference where other "accomplished" ELR shooters IGNORE atmospherics, as a matter of routine? Please do...

Again, I get the part about defending a friend. Just questioning the actually significance of making such a broad generalization about powder stability, while ignoring other pertinent factors that could affect the observed impacts.

Why not just run the load thru a chrono & note any deviation in avg. velocity with respect to temp variation? Isn't that simple enough proof???

How does shooting at 1350yds+, with all the associated 'white noise' of atmospherics, load, shooter and WIND, etc...serve to prove temp. stability, over just shooting the same load thru/over a chronograph???

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I shoot H1000 in the edge with the 300 grainers at around 4.1" I tried rutumbo and rl33. 33 will get you over 3000 fps. But for me it was spikey. Every grain of powder spiked velocity. In contrast Retubo had a 2 grain window where speed did not change. I settled on 93 of H1000 and .016" in the lands for around 2800 fps in a 28" Broughton. Why? Shoots 3-4" 3 shot cold bore goups at 1k, every time year round. It always amazes me. Most consistent rifle I ever owned.