.308 win dimension questions...

[brccd]

Hi All,

Looking for some help on dimensions here...

I see the length for this is supposed to be 2.8".

I started reloading 10 years ago, doing .223 and .308 ... using lee dies\press

For 308 use, i had a savage 10, and the rounds i made were actually measuring 2.75"...worked perfectly in the gun.

Recently bought a savage 110 Storm 308, went to the range and had issues loading and ejecting!

Questioned my reloads...after checking things, the new rifle seems to have either a very tigh chamber or some issue...going back to savage... even empty clean shell case goin in the gun would cause a problem and come out scratched.

In the meantime, to confirm things, bought factory Federal .308, American white tail, 165 grain, to make some comparison measurments...

Those federal rounds are measuring 2.75" and not 2.8" ...

found some specs with mins and max measures..

from saami:


Question:
has anyone used is a min length for 308 down to 2.490"? a range from 2.7 to 2.8 seems acceptable.
Is this maybe gun dependent, or should all rifles in .308 be able to handle this range?

Thx

 

[Will Henry]

Cartridge overall length is dependent as much on the shape of the bullet as anything else. Load a 150 round nose bullet, seated to the cannelure, and the length may well be 2.5 or less. Load a low drag 185, and you may easily be over 2.8. Now, throat dimensions may also vary, headspace will vary, and all dimensions have tolerances attached.
Scratching on a clean empty case might indicated debris in the chamber or scratching in the chamber itself. WH

 

[brccd]

Understood. Well, I now need to wait and see what savage will say, another 4 to 6 weeks im told, ugghh.

I have been loading with hornady fmj 150 and am looking to try something new with hornady 168 eld match for a new batch. Like you advise, I will see where things are with that bullet ... might have some more questions for help at that time with those!

Thx

 

[Will Henry]

Used to be, in a case like this, the first step would be to have a gunsmith look it over and make a recommendation before sending it back to the manufacturuer. Times change, I reckon. WH

 

[Straightshooter1]

Hi All,

Looking for some help on dimensions here...

I see the length for this is supposed to be 2.8".

I started reloading 10 years ago, doing .223 and .308 ... using lee dies\press

For 308 use, i had a savage 10, and the rounds i made were actually measuring 2.75"...worked perfectly in the gun.

Recently bought a savage 110 Storm 308, went to the range and had issues loading and ejecting!

Questioned my reloads...after checking things, the new rifle seems to have either a very tigh chamber or some issue...going back to savage... even empty clean shell case goin in the gun would cause a problem and come out scratched.

In the meantime, to confirm things, bought factory Federal .308, American white tail, 165 grain, to make some comparison measurments...

Those federal rounds are measuring 2.75" and not 2.8" ...

found some specs with mins and max measures..

from saami:
View attachment 1608318

Question:
has anyone used is a min length for 308 down to 2.490"? a range from 2.7 to 2.8 seems acceptable.
Is this maybe gun dependent, or should all rifles in .308 be able to handle this range?

Thx

A picture is worth a thousand words! Post some pics of those scratched cartridges/cases.

New rifles, especially factory guns, can easily has issues with burrs that do that. If the burrs are minor, it might be something you can take care of with a little cleaning treatment with something like of IOSSO . . . ???

 

[brccd]

Pic of catridges with scatches:


These were clean going in, caused bold to jam, had to bang hard to release.
I have a savage 10, used same cartridges, loads ejects smoorth as silk.
These cartridges are well within spec.
you can clearly see the scratches, which I think were where the cartridge was getting lodged cause the bolt issue. Something is wrong!

The gun is already on its way back to savage to check out.

i also found these honing brushes maybe I could have tried first but too late...and the gun was BRAND new, so let savage fix it...should not be like this.

I also created a similar thread under "reloading" sorry bout that...new on the site and didnt think this thread was showing up.

 

[brccd]

Used to be, in a case like this, the first step would be to have a gunsmith look it over and make a recommendation before sending it back to the manufacturuer. Times change, I reckon. WH

yeah, I just went back to the dealer, who made a comment it could be head space. The scratches in my opion seem to mean the chamber is too tight or something...but not really sure. Since it was brand spankin new, figured it should just go back as recommended also by the dealer....so now wait another 4 to 6 weeks!

 

[Rank Amateur]

If you know this, please forgive this post. COAL for your rifles will be limited by magazine length, not SAAMI specs. You may find that your rifle shoots better with rounds loaded to longer or shorter COAL, again length limited only by the shape of your bullets and inner dimension of the magazine. Shape/length of the 168 ELD is markedly different than the 150 FMJs you’ve been loading. The stem of your seating die doesn’t (shouldn’t) be contacting the bullet at it’s tip, so COAL will be different between those two bullets even if you don’t adjust your die. Shape will also influence the distance between the bullet and your barrel’s lands. If you load the 168s to the same COAL you are used to for the 150s, you’ll have significantly more bullet in the case, which may result in higher pressures. Again, if you already know all this, please forgive. Assume you will be developing a new load for the new bullets/rifle, starting low and working up safely. Good luck!

 

[brccd]

If you know this, please forgive this post. COAL for your rifles will be limited by magazine length, not SAAMI specs. You may find that your rifle shoots better with rounds loaded to longer or shorter COAL, again length limited only by the shape of your bullets and inner dimension of the magazine. Shape/length of the 168 ELD is markedly different than the 150 FMJs you’ve been loading. The stem of your seating die doesn’t (shouldn’t) be contacting the bullet at it’s tip, so COAL will be different between those two bullets even if you don’t adjust your die. Shape will also influence the distance between the bullet and your barrel’s lands. If you load the 168s to the same COAL you are used to for the 150s, you’ll have significantly more bullet in the case, which may result in higher pressures. Again, if you already know all this, please forgive. Assume you will be developing a new load for the new bullets/rifle, starting low and working up safely. Good luck!

I appreciate you pointing out these things...I actually just got a micro adjuster to add to the seating die from LEE, and can record adjusted settings for the 150, and will need to determine the exact seating adjustment for the 168's. I would also confirm the measurements on the cartriges once done. I don't have those 168's yet, but will be ordering them in the next week or so. Once I get set up for those, (docs, powder tables, etc) I will probably confirm things with you guys to make sure I am not missing anything. Its good to have others checking what you are doing, and provide their knowledge and experiences. so Thanks!

 

[Straightshooter1]

Pic of catridges with scatches:
View attachment 1608421

These were clean going in, caused bold to jam, had to bang hard to release.
I have a savage 10, used same cartridges, loads ejects smoorth as silk.
These cartridges are well within spec.
you can clearly see the scratches, which I think were where the cartridge was getting lodged cause the bolt issue. Something is wrong!

The gun is already on its way back to savage to check out.

i also found these honing brushes maybe I could have tried first but too late...and the gun was BRAND new, so let savage fix it...should not be like this.

I also created a similar thread under "reloading" sorry bout that...new on the site and didnt think this thread was showing up.

Those case definitely look like they're being jammed into a chamber that's too small. Or . . . the cases are too large, which can happen if these are cases that were fired in another rifle, even though they're been sized. The case might need to be sized with a die that's a "Small Base Sizing Die"???

What measurement to you get for the diameter at th web, like at the .200" area? And what at that area where they're being scratched?

 

[Will Henry]

The chamber is ugly and should never have left the factory. You are right to send it back. It could be set back a turn and fixed, but you should not have to pay for it. There are several technical terms often used to describe a chamber like that, but none are suitable for a family oriented site. WH

 

[brccd]

The chamber is ugly and should never have left the factory. You are right to send it back. It could be set back a turn and fixed, but you should not have to pay for it. There are several technical terms often used to describe a chamber like that, but none are suitable for a family oriented site. WH

Ha, thx...we will see what comes back from savage...might be like 4 weeks! I will give an update then...

 

[brccd]

Those case definitely look like they're being jammed into a chamber that's too small. Or . . . the cases are too large, which can happen if these are cases that were fired in another rifle, even though they're been sized. The case might need to be sized with a die that's a "Small Base Sizing Die"???

What measurement to you get for the diameter at th web, like at the .200" area? And what at that area where they're being scratched?

near the base of the cartridge, the spec shows 0.47" ...and that is exactly what i measured.

 

[Straightshooter1]

near the base of the cartridge, the spec shows 0.47" ...and that is exactly what i measured.

That .470" is right at what my fired cases come out to be. After sizing, my cases are at .4690". Your "0.47" should still fit any SAAMI speck chamber. Guess we'll see what you get back from Savage. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[brccd]

That .470" is right at what my fired cases come out to be. After sizing, my cases are at .4690". Your "0.47" should still fit any SAAMI speck chamber. Guess we'll see what you get back from Savage. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Do you think the 0.001 would make a difference? As you say, the spec shows 0.47, and that should be before firing...and yeah, need to wait a month or so now...

 

[Straightshooter1]

Do you think the 0.001 would make a difference? As you say, the spec shows 0.47, and that should be before firing...and yeah, need to wait a month or so now...

Yeah, I think .001 can make a difference in a chamber like that. But it still just seems like a pretty tight chamber for a factory gun. Maybe they were just using a brand new an old well used reamer with your barrel???

 

[William Vogel]

Yeah, I think .001 can make a difference in a chamber like that. But it still just seems like a pretty tight chamber for a factory gun. Maybe they were just using a brand new reamer with your barrel???

It would actually be using a worn out reamer because as the reamer wears, its outside diameter diminishes and the chamber becomes more and more tight. Headspace gauges are much smaller in diameter than the body area of the chamber. The headspace gauge is only used to measure the distance from the bolt face to the datum line of the shoulder. When I chamber a barrel I always insert a new brass cartridge case to ensure that the reamer body is still within spec. Reamers can be ground sharp again and this restores the true chamber dimensions. Typically a chamber finish reamer can finalize many barrel chambers but have to be maintained. Apparently your chamber was finalized with an out of service limit reamer. Honing the body portion of the chamber could fix the problem but chamber will never be precise enough if reloading is in the plan. Factory ammunition that’s being discarded. Full length resizing would probably require excessive shoulder bump to get the body diameter undersized enough for the brass to drop out when confirming case to chamber fit.

 

[brccd]

great info, thanks. fyi, savage sent a reply email yesterday...their gunsmiths are checking it...so we should know hopefully soon...really looking to get it back, since i only got to play with it for like a 30 min...and then problems. but guess these things happen!

 

[shoot4fun]

Pic of catridges with scatches:
View attachment 1608421

These were clean going in, caused bold to jam, had to bang hard to release.
I have a savage 10, used same cartridges, loads ejects smoorth as silk.
These cartridges are well within spec.
you can clearly see the scratches, which I think were where the cartridge was getting lodged cause the bolt issue. Something is wrong!

The gun is already on its way back to savage to check out.

i also found these honing brushes maybe I could have tried first but too late...and the gun was BRAND new, so let savage fix it...should not be like this.

I also created a similar thread under "reloading" sorry bout that...new on the site and didnt think this thread was showing up.

A quick look at the chamber with a bore scope would have likely confirmed it but I really believe (and have seen it before) a chip (or 3) got on top of the reamer and scored the chamber. Such an issue would cause those "rings" on the brass. You may have noticed it difficult to chamber a round and close the bolt and you definitely should have had trouble with ejection of spent brass.
I'm betting your rifle comes home with a new barrel.

 

[brccd]

Hi Thanks for the reply!

Right, I was having to do a little extra push on the bolt to get the cartridge in....stupid me, thinking its brand new must be tight. And yes, when i saw the rings around the bottom of the case, I was saying to myself...how the heck does that happen, after having a bit of an effort to extract the round! At one point, had a live round stuck...was able to close, fire, then bang the handle to open and extract.

Well it was sent back to savage (via dealer) a month ago, and I actually got a reply via email, just yesterday (miracle) and they said their gun smiths are checking it out...

FYI again, this was a stainless barrel, first for me...thought this could be an issue as well!

Glad to hear others expereiences have seen similar things .

If new barrel...hope it all just works. Got new factory loads and targets to test with!

My savage 11, worked perfectly from day 1, and very accurate. So I was not expecting this.

Its all a bit of a learning experience!

Regards.