.308 + Varget + where to go?

[dc.fireman]

Hey all -

After having a dismal match score last weekend, and some issues with my reloads, I decided to examine again using Varget in my .308 300M match rifle ( a Tikka T3 Sporter), with 1095 rounds fired. I was originally pushing a 168 bullet - Sierra's and Hornady's at an anemic 2400 fps with 40.0 gr. of H4895, seated at 2.800" COAL.

I read a few older threads here regarding 43.5 - 45.0gr. of Varget. I also read several threads proposing the idea of 'convergence', which I still don't quite grasp. Of particular interest to me was a quote by @Erik Cortina regarding not being 'mesmerized by small groups.'

I loaded up groups of four each in 43.5, 43.8, 44.0, 44.2, 44.3, 44.4, 44.5 seated at .050" of the lands (2.920" CAOL), plus 5 rounds of my original load to use as foulers/sighters/baseline. My suspicions were confirmed regarding my original load - it's not even acceptable @ 100Y, much less 300M.

I fired these off at 100 yards, using a 14 power Nikon from a front rest and rear bag - my normal test rig, before switching to iron sights/sling/prone at a 300M reduced for 200Y C-2 target.

Looking at 44.3, it's tough not to be mesmerized - I haven't fired four shots through the same hole, ever.

I have loaded up 30 more of the 44.3 for testing at distance . My question is, what other combinations would you test here, based upon the convergence principle? Change seating depths, and try a charge weight again? Something else?

 

[Zero333]

My next step would be to load them at 44.3 with exactly the same distance to lands as when tested. Then shoot them a couple groups at 100 and the rest at 300.

If they hold sub 1/2 moa call it good and go shoot.

If possible, cronograph the load, so if (or when) it starts acting erratic you can re-chrono them and see if you need to reduce or up the charge weight to make the same velocity again.

 

[JFrank]

They (Tikka 308) seem to like speed. These 155 scenars run 44.2 H4895 seated about .015 off the lands for a little over 2800 FPS and
Very accurate

 

[Sandstorm]

I have a T3 Tikka that shoots 44.5gr Imr4064 and 168SMK's into a group all touching @ 100, and I get
the same with 44.3gr Varget and 155gr Scenars..

 

[SPQR70AD]

They (Tikka 308) seem to like speed. These 155 scenars run 44.2 H4895 seated about .015 off the lands for a little over 2800 FPS and
Very accurate

if you want maximum speed try CFE 223. with your bullet you can get 3000 fps out of a 24" barrel. with a 175 gr bullet 2750 fps. amazing velocity out of a 308 and as a bonus no copper residue

 

[argrendel]

I’ve had good luck with N-140 in several 308s. But not 2800fps!

 

[simo hayha]

I use h4895 in 308 with very good results

 

[Sundown]

175 Berger HPBT, 020" off lands...43.1 grs Varget...210M primer...3/8" group @ 100 yds...Scope your barrel to make sure it's clean

 

[68cuda340]

I have a real M40a1 and M24 rifles (have several Military sons)
Did a lot of research on the M118 and M118LR loads
ended up with a winning load using 43.7 gr R15 w/CCI BR2 primers Sierra SMK 168gr
After 600 yards the 168s start to go subsonic thats why the M118LR went to a 173 gr bullet

 

[Skippyisaaussie]

44.0 - 45.0 is pretty well the norm with the 308 and Varget.

In my omark44 26" also my 30"kreiger Stevens mod 200 and is pretty well the norm for most Australian shooters in 308(ADI 2208) rebaged to varget for you yanks

 

[Rdlningcltchdmpr]

Hey all -

After having a dismal match score last weekend, and some issues with my reloads, I decided to examine again using Varget in my .308 300M match rifle ( a Tikka T3 Sporter), with 1095 rounds fired. I was originally pushing a 168 bullet - Sierra's and Hornady's at an anemic 2400 fps with 40.0 gr. of H4895, seated at 2.800" COAL.

I read a few older threads here regarding 43.5 - 45.0gr. of Varget. I also read several threads proposing the idea of 'convergence', which I still don't quite grasp. Of particular interest to me was a quote by @Erik Cortina regarding not being 'mesmerized by small groups.'

I loaded up groups of four each in 43.5, 43.8, 44.0, 44.2, 44.3, 44.4, 44.5 seated at .050" of the lands (2.920" CAOL), plus 5 rounds of my original load to use as foulers/sighters/baseline. My suspicions were confirmed regarding my original load - it's not even acceptable @ 100Y, much less 300M.

I fired these off at 100 yards, using a 14 power Nikon from a front rest and rear bag - my normal test rig, before switching to iron sights/sling/prone at a 300M reduced for 200Y C-2 target.

Looking at 44.3, it's tough not to be mesmerized - I haven't fired four shots through the same hole, ever.

I have loaded up 30 more of the 44.3 for testing at distance . My question is, what other combinations would you test here, based upon the convergence principle? Change seating depths, and try a charge weight again? Something else?

Hey all -

After having a dismal match score last weekend, and some issues with my reloads, I decided to examine again using Varget in my .308 300M match rifle ( a Tikka T3 Sporter), with 1095 rounds fired. I was originally pushing a 168 bullet - Sierra's and Hornady's at an anemic 2400 fps with 40.0 gr. of H4895, seated at 2.800" COAL.

I read a few older threads here regarding 43.5 - 45.0gr. of Varget. I also read several threads proposing the idea of 'convergence', which I still don't quite grasp. Of particular interest to me was a quote by @Erik Cortina regarding not being 'mesmerized by small groups.'

I loaded up groups of four each in 43.5, 43.8, 44.0, 44.2, 44.3, 44.4, 44.5 seated at .050" of the lands (2.920" CAOL), plus 5 rounds of my original load to use as foulers/sighters/baseline. My suspicions were confirmed regarding my original load - it's not even acceptable @ 100Y, much less 300M.

I fired these off at 100 yards, using a 14 power Nikon from a front rest and rear bag - my normal test rig, before switching to iron sights/sling/prone at a 300M reduced for 200Y C-2 target.

Looking at 44.3, it's tough not to be mesmerized - I haven't fired four shots through the same hole, ever.

I have loaded up 30 more of the 44.3 for testing at distance . My question is, what other combinations would you test here, based upon the convergence principle? Change seating depths, and try a charge weight again? Something else?

This is driving me crazy. With the 308 all you have to do to get tiny, tiny groups is pick a bullet, then seat it out as far as possible without being jammed. Then pick up to 7 of the top powder choice's , then just load 12 of each powder, using 1 grain increments- example- varget 3@44, 3@45,3@ 46, 3@47. That = 12 per powder type. What you will see is one powder that shines like a bright beacon. Over the other powders. It will give the results you seek without ruining your barrel and wasting components. Also when i shoot two bullet's that don't go right together i won't even shoot the third, just take it home and disassemble. This technique works perfectly perfect. Every time.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Hey all -

After having a dismal match score last weekend, and some issues with my reloads, I decided to examine again using Varget in my .308 300M match rifle ( a Tikka T3 Sporter), with 1095 rounds fired. I was originally pushing a 168 bullet - Sierra's and Hornady's at an anemic 2400 fps with 40.0 gr. of H4895, seated at 2.800" COAL.

I read a few older threads here regarding 43.5 - 45.0gr. of Varget. I also read several threads proposing the idea of 'convergence', which I still don't quite grasp. Of particular interest to me was a quote by @Erik Cortina regarding not being 'mesmerized by small groups.'

I loaded up groups of four each in 43.5, 43.8, 44.0, 44.2, 44.3, 44.4, 44.5 seated at .050" of the lands (2.920" CAOL), plus 5 rounds of my original load to use as foulers/sighters/baseline. My suspicions were confirmed regarding my original load - it's not even acceptable @ 100Y, much less 300M.

I fired these off at 100 yards, using a 14 power Nikon from a front rest and rear bag - my normal test rig, before switching to iron sights/sling/prone at a 300M reduced for 200Y C-2 target.

Looking at 44.3, it's tough not to be mesmerized - I haven't fired four shots through the same hole, ever.

I have loaded up 30 more of the 44.3 for testing at distance . My question is, what other combinations would you test here, based upon the convergence principle? Change seating depths, and try a charge weight again? Something else?

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "convergence" in this particular example. In my experience tight (meaning one ragged hole) groups never happen "by accident", although it's not statistically impossible. Any negative effects of the load, the shooter, and the environment almost universally cause a group to become larger, not smaller. In other words, dispersion almost always increases when you move away from optimal conditions, pretty much like entropy.

In general, the approach most commonly used in load development is to test a fairly wide range of charge weights at a single seating depth (such as you did), then select an "optimal" charge weight and conduct a fine increment seating depth test. Occasionally, some reloaders like to reverse the order of those two steps. Both approaches work. It is not uncommon to see groups get larger and smaller during both processes. This typically occurs across specific range(s) or "windows" as charge weight or seating depth is varied. The idea is to load to the middle of the optimal charge weight window, which will generally maintain stable velocity and accuracy (precision) over the widest possible temperature range for the chosen powder. I generally load close to longest of the optimal seating depths increments, which will still keep the groups tight, but give you the most room for land erosion before seating depth testing needs to be re-visited.

The main reason for covering fairly wide ranges in both steps is so that you can actually see the whole width of any "optimal windows". If you can't see both edges of a window, you don't know how wide it is and you don't know where the middle, or leading edges are and you're really just guessing on the load. If you mistakenly pick a charge weight or seating depth close to the edge of a window, it might shoot just fine on that particular day, and fall apart when the conditions change. That is why picking a "one-hole" load without fully testing charge weight and seating depth on either side of it can be risky. It may not behave very well once the conditions are different. At a minimum, I would suggest re-testing in fine increments to either side of the one-hole load, such as 44.2, 44.3, 44.4 gr, then do the same with seating depth. Doing that will accomplish two things. First, it will let you make an estimate of how wide the windows are (i.e. how sensitive is the load?). Secondly, it let you determine whether the original one-hole load continues to shoot that well, or was just a lucky group on that particular day.

 

[Lefty Trigger]

The last two 308's I built were extremely happy burning H4895 and both gave great results, however my latest build is a 1-12 twist 26 inch and it does not shoot it worth a darn. Each powder I try that is slower (in the burn chart) the gun shoots better. There may be a clue to whats going on though... this new barrel is FAST with velocities at least 100-200 fps faster than prior barrels of same length but 1-10 twists. I'm guessing that the faster barrel is just not working with the faster powders almost like it likes a full case of slower powder? Right not I'm trying some VV N550 which is really slow in the 308 relm of things.

 

[Rdlningcltchdmpr]

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "convergence" in this particular example. In my experience tight (meaning one ragged hole) groups never happen "by accident", although it's not statistically impossible. Any negative effects of the load, the shooter, and the environment almost universally cause a group to become larger, not smaller. In other words, dispersion almost always increases when you move away from optimal conditions, pretty much like entropy.

In general, the approach most commonly used in load development is to test a fairly wide range of charge weights at a single seating depth (such as you did), then select an "optimal" charge weight and conduct a fine increment seating depth test. Occasionally, some reloaders like to reverse the order of those two steps. Both approaches work. It is not uncommon to see groups get larger and smaller during both processes. This typically occurs across specific range(s) or "windows" as charge weight or seating depth is varied. The idea is to load to the middle of the optimal charge weight window, which will generally maintain stable velocity and accuracy (precision) over the widest possible temperature range for the chosen powder. I generally load close to longest of the optimal seating depths increments, which will still keep the groups tight, but give you the most room for land erosion before seating depth testing needs to be re-visited.

The main reason for covering fairly wide ranges in both steps is so that you can actually see the whole width of any "optimal windows". If you can't see both edges of a window, you don't know how wide it is and you don't know where the middle, or leading edges are and you're really just guessing on the load. If you mistakenly pick a charge weight or seating depth close to the edge of a window, it might shoot just fine on that particular day, and fall apart when the conditions change. That is why picking a "one-hole" load without fully testing charge weight and seating depth on either side of it can be risky. It may not behave very well once the conditions are different. At a minimum, I would suggest re-testing in fine increments to either side of the one-hole load, such as 44.2, 44.3, 44.4 gr, then do the same with seating depth. Doing that will accomplish two things. First, it will let you make an estimate of how wide the windows are (i.e. how sensitive is the load?). Secondly, it let you determine whether the original one-hole load continues to shoot that well, or was just a lucky group on that particular day.

Yes of course you would fine tune after finding the powder and load amount. By going tiny amount over and tiny amount under, and moving bullet tiny bit out tiny bit in. Also when i quickly and easily find a one hole load , just for good measure i load a few with other primers just to see what happens. Ussually not beneficial but once in a while it is great. I have seen so many shooters ruin a good barrel testing and testing and testing it makes me sick . i can , and do get guns to shoot tiny groups with only a few shots . what is not to like about that ? I have a 8mm mauser load that works perfect in every 8mm I've tried it in. 1/2" groups out of original barrels- wow. And this powder h4350 is not even shown as an option in the hogdon load data. For 175-180 grain bullet's. Also as i said before , i see shooters fire two bullet's that land 3/4" apart and then shoot the other three just because they loaded them ? Why, Low intelligence? Too much money ? Let's heat the barrel more ! Every different gun can prefer a different powder, I've seen it over and over . my 308 likes v- n135. No other powder will match it even though they are producing nearly identical m- v.

 

[fatelvis]

This is driving me crazy. With the 308 all you have to do to get tiny, tiny groups is pick a bullet, then seat it out as far as possible without being jammed. Then pick up to 7 of the top powder choice's , then just load 12 of each powder, using 1 grain increments- example- varget 3@44, 3@45,3@ 46, 3@47. That = 12 per powder type. What you will see is one powder that shines like a bright beacon. Over the other powders. It will give the results you seek without ruining your barrel and wasting components. Also when i shoot two bullet's that don't go right together i won't even shoot the third, just take it home and disassemble. This technique works perfectly perfect. Every time.

I love simple methods to achieve great results. Thank you for that insight! (sincerely). What happens if you have a factory 5R Govt barrel with a throat so long one can never reach the lands?

 

[Rdlningcltchdmpr]

Just seat bullet out as far as practical and make it happen- captain. Ha!

 

[SPQR70AD]

This is driving me crazy. With the 308 all you have to do to get tiny, tiny groups is pick a bullet, then seat it out as far as possible without being jammed. Then pick up to 7 of the top powder choice's , then just load 12 of each powder, using 1 grain increments- example- varget 3@44, 3@45,3@ 46, 3@47. That = 12 per powder type. What you will see is one powder that shines like a bright beacon. Over the other powders. It will give the results you seek without ruining your barrel and wasting components. Also when i shoot two bullet's that don't go right together i won't even shoot the third, just take it home and disassemble. This technique works perfectly perfect. Every time.

This is driving me crazy. With the 308 all you have to do to get tiny, tiny groups is pick a bullet, then seat it out as far as possible without being jammed. Then pick up to 7 of the top powder choice's , then just load 12 of each powder, using 1 grain increments- example- varget 3@44, 3@45,3@ 46, 3@47. That = 12 per powder type. What you will see is one powder that shines like a bright beacon. Over the other powders. It will give the results you seek without ruining your barrel and wasting components. Also when i shoot two bullet's that don't go right together i won't even shoot the third, just take it home and disassemble. This technique works perfectly perfect. Every time.

Any 308 I ever had including MIA's I never had to treat any of them like a menopausal woman lol. never had to try 7 different powders. AC 2520 shot superb in bolts and the semi autos. Switched to Rel 15 got the same results with hardly any copper residue. never had to seat bullets near the lands which I do not like doing. I use a Lee factory crimp die and use a factory round to get the length.
I feel seating to the lands when using neck tension which varies from round to round allows the bullet to release at the same time but wears barrels and raises pressure. The Lee die to me does the same thing and every bullet is let go at the same time. The 308 family of cartridges are one of the most accurate factory design

 

[Rdlningcltchdmpr]

Any 308 I ever had including MIA's I never had to treat any of them like a menopausal woman lol. never had to try 7 different powders. AC 2520 shot superb in bolts and the semi autos. Switched to Rel 15 got the same results with hardly any copper residue. never had to seat bullets near the lands which I do not like doing. I use a Lee factory crimp die and use a factory round to get the length.
I feel seating to the lands when using neck tension which varies from round to round allows the bullet to release at the same time but wears barrels and raises pressure. The Lee die to me does the same thing and every bullet is let go at the same time. The 308 family of cartridges are one of the most accurate factory design

Any one can get lucky. The information i provide is not theory it is proven day in and day out. As i said it works perfectly perfect every time. Tiny, tiny groups. Could you imagine a person competing in a benchrest competition saying , I'm not going to worry about seating depth . I'm going to use a crimped case and deform these perfect match bullet's. What's the difference between a.010 group and a .o20 group? Answer winning or not winning.

 

[Rdlningcltchdmpr]

Sorry if i was short in explaining, many of the bullet's that i shoot will never reach the rifling so on a 30 caliber cartridge i just seat them into the case .170"-.200" as that is about minimum to hold the bullet in alignment. And i ussually have .003" grip sizing. So the same thing applies in that one powder will be like magic compared to the others. Sometimes you get lucky and it's the first or second powder you try. That happened with my new 8 twist Krieger 22-250. The first powder was superformance and it shot in the high 0's- high 1's immediately with the highest speed of any listed loads. So i was done. The other powder loads i was going to test never got tested. Hope this helps. Update i mistakenly said cfe223 before i meant to say superformance.

 

[JFrank]

This is driving me crazy. With the 308 all you have to do to get tiny, tiny groups is pick a bullet, then seat it out as far as possible without being jammed. Then pick up to 7 of the top powder choice's , then just load 12 of each powder, using 1 grain increments- example- varget 3@44, 3@45,3@ 46, 3@47. That = 12 per powder type. What you will see is one powder that shines like a bright beacon. Over the other powders. It will give the results you seek without ruining your barrel and wasting components. Also when i shoot two bullet's that don't go right together i won't even shoot the third, just take it home and disassemble. This technique works perfectly perfect. Every time.

So simple a Cave Man could do it.