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308 throat erosion

marine52

Silver $$ Contributor
For you F-TR guys:
I have a 308 Bartlein barrel with 788 rounds down the tube. Reamer used had .202 freebore.
600 of the 788 rounds were 200.20x Bergers with .010 jump and 44.2 grains of Varget. The other 188 were experiments with Warner Flatline 180s with 43.2 grains of H4895.

I just check and the barrel throat erosion is equal to .015 since the 1st shot. Is this typical for a 308?
 
For you F-TR guys:
I have a 308 Bartlein barrel with 788 rounds down the tube. Reamer used had .202 freebore.
600 of the 788 rounds were 200.20x Bergers with .010 jump and 44.2 grains of Varget. The other 188 were experiments with Warner Flatline 180s with 43.2 grains of H4895.

I just check and the barrel throat erosion is equal to .015 since the 1st shot. Is this typical for a 308?

In my current .308 Krieger barrel I've got 4,195 rounds through it and the lands has eroded by .041. I typically fire 175 SMK's and have fired Berger 185 jugs and even 40 rounds of Flatline's to see what they did. Typically, I load my cartridges with moderate loads, but have fired several hundred hot loads. When my barrel had 780 rounds fired through it, the erosion amounted to .008. But again, most of my loads were moderate, and I tend to watch the barrels temperature pretty close since my shooting is all in Arizona and not letting the barrel get any hotter than 122°F.

Heat is a big issue with regards to throat erosion and 44.2 gr of Varget is somewhat hot, so in comparing my experience with your, you should take that into consideration. In my limited experience, .0019" of throat erosion per hundred rounds sounds excessive to me for a .308. I feel the Flatline rounds likely contributed to some of that, but that's something I have any data to back that up.
 
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Just think, it does and doesn't matter on the rate of fire during your shooting. Throat erosion happens every time you fire a round. .015 I don't believe is awfully bad, some may even say it's good. Also there is other things to consider, barrel quality, powders, etc. Even the best barrel makers will have one once in a while not last as long has the previous one a shooter had of the same brand. Possibly little difference in the lot of steel.
 
I also have a Bartlein MTU on one rifle , and I've found that normal erosion seems to be about .001 per 100 rounds . Especially when using the combination you are using . I shot 43.4gr of Varget behind both 200 Hybrids , and 200.20x's , and got nearly the same amount of erosion over approx. 2,500 rounds . I've switched to a different powder and 185 OTM's , and barrel erosion has significantly lessened . And yes ; primer selection will also be a contributing factor .
 
I also have a Bartlein MTU on one rifle , and I've found that normal erosion seems to be about .001 per 100 rounds . Especially when using the combination you are using . I shot 43.4gr of Varget behind both 200 Hybrids , and 200.20x's , and got nearly the same amount of erosion over approx. 2,500 rounds . I've switched to a different powder and 185 OTM's , and barrel erosion has significantly lessened . And yes ; primer selection will also be a contributing factor .
I'm very new to this and would like to learn more about primers selection and throat erosion.
 
It's on the higher end of what I'd expect to see. I'd expect more in the 5-10 thou range as the barrel (throat) gets broken in, and then it should stabilize and move very little for quite some time. Granted, that's with loads closer to the lower node, rather than the upper.
 
Considering that your 200gr load is about 3 to 4 grains over the max pressure for the rifle I'm not surprised that you are seeing accelerated erosion.
 
I have observed normal throat erosion values somewhere in the range of .0005" to .001" per 100 rounds in my .308 barrels, as determined by regular measurements (every 300-400 rounds) of distance to touching the lands made with the same set of 10 bullets over the life of the barrels. These are values I have observed using loads with approximately 44 gr Varget with 185 Hybrids, or 43.5 gr Varget with the 200.20X bullet, in rifles with 30" barrels chambered with 0.180" freebore, and using Lapua Palma brass. Your erosion rate seems to be about twice that (~.002" per 100 rounds). Some reasons for that might be the hotter 44.2 Varget load with the 200.20X bullet as Jdne5b mentioned, or possibly due to shooting the Warner Flatline solids, which are likely to be less "compressible" than traditional lead core bullets and might increase the rate of throat erosion. However, it may not be possible to ever really know the cause(s) with any certainty. Frankly, it might just be that particular barrel. Regardless, .002" land erosion per 100 rounds is not so far beyond typical land erosion for a .308 Win that I would be overly concerned about it. If that erosion rate still bothers you, I would suggest finding someone that shoots a 6.5x.284 and asking them about their barrel life. After that conversation, you'll feel much better about your .308 Win. ;)
 
Have a few 308 barrels under my belt. Most are very close to Greg's (Ned) observation of ca. 0.001/100rounds. In one manufacturer I use I see twice that 0.002/100. Seems to be metal dependent as well as all of the other things mentioned. If it shoots, who cares, has been my motto.
 
Not true. With a .200+ freebore the OP is shooting about the same loads and velocity that 99.9% of F-TR competitors shoot with no pressure issues. I regularly run 200 gr. bullets @ 2650 + fps with little or no throat erosion over the 2500 - 3000 round life of a barrel.
Agree. I have had no signs of high pressure. In load development, I went up to 44.5 varget—with only a very slight primer crater—before deciding on 44.2 as my optimal load at 2660 FPS.
 
I have never experienced throat loss of 0.001 per 100 as some have claimed here. I meash-sured freebore today out of curiosity after shooting 450 rounds at nationals a couple weeks ago. Zero loss. Used the same 2 bullets as last measurement plus a few new ones from the same lot. Shooting 200 Hybrids @2650, Bartlein HV 5r 10 twist. This barrel has 1124 rounds through it and it still measures the same as it did the day I chambered it. Maybe I'm lucky, maybe it's the "Bore Rider" throater.
 
Considering that your 200gr load is about 3 to 4 grains over the max pressure for the rifle I'm not surprised that you are seeing accelerated erosion.

200gr bullet loaded to overall length of 2.815(.005 longer than Berger load data).

200gr bullet loaded to overall length of 3.110" for custom chamber on custom barrel with custom action. This is an F-T/R cartridge give or take. My chamber has .170 freebore and the bullet jumps a relatively long .021. The OP has longer freebore and less jump so his cartridge will be even longer overall.

Notice the case capacity difference depending on different seating depths. The OP will likely not be over max pressure.

When you see load data posted on this site or any other site for that matter you MUST pay attention to the context of the post. In this case it's about F-T/R shooting with lots of facts allowing people to comment based upon his freebore, charge and powder, jump and more.

This isn't meant to be demeaning, but educational so no one gets hurts.

IMG_1132.JPG
 
UPDATE:
First, here’s a bit more info:
My throat erosion calculations are based on measurements using the Stoney point OAL gauge with a modified case to fit. I also have the Hornady version of the OAL gauge with the nylon/plastic bullet pusher. I use both to confirm my numbers and they are always within one thousandth of each other. Yes I’m anal, but I haven’t met an F-Class shooter who isn’t.

Original CBTO with 200.20X and new barrel from 2017: 2.360
CBTO with 200.20X bullet this week: 2.375 (bullet lot from 2020)

OK, today I’ve been searching this and other forums for more opinions and one experienced shooter said something that hit me: “make sure when doing throat erosion measurements you use the same bullet (or at least a bullet from the same lot) and use the same modified case.“ Also, Ned posted in a thread last year: “different Lots of bullets can give different readings“ and he touched on this above when he said he uses the same set of ten bullets for his measurements. Also, Medic505 mentioned the use of bullets from the same lot.

This got me going. I searched my bench drawers and found a 200.20X bullet from the lot I used in the original measurement in 2017. I had set it aside cause the meplat was not uniform when I did the pointing. USING THIS BULLET MY CBTO reads 2.366 !! Clearly in line with the numbers that several guys posted above and in the vicinity of .001 per hundred rounds.
With Berger’s reputation for uniform bullet dimensions, I had assumed uniformity between lots. Wrong!

MY LESSON LEARNED: when doing throat erosion measurements USE THE SAME BULLET or BULLET FROM THE SAME LOT. Ned

I suggest when you do your initial throat measurement put that bullet I an envelope and mark it with date and use that exact bullet for future erosion calculations.

Thanks for your valuable comments. This forum is Tops.
 
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I'm very new to this and would like to learn more about primers selection and throat erosion.
Basically ; Some primers have a higher Brisance ( Flame Energy ) and burn with a hotter more intense flame , thus causing a faster and more complete "burn" during detonation . This can also cause a slightly exaggerated , more rapid throat erosion . Depending on other factors , such as chosen bullet / powder combination . A example would be to use a Magnum primer behind a heavy bullet , while using a high energy , fast burn powder . To push a round at extremely high velocity . Speed kills.......Barrels .:eek:
 
UPDATE:
First, here’s a bit more info:
My throat erosion calculations are based on measurements using the Stoney point OAL gauge with a modified case to fit. I also have the Hornady version of the OAL gauge with the nylon/plastic bullet pusher. I use both to confirm my numbers and they are always within one thousandth of each other. Yes I’m anal, but I haven’t met an F-Class shooter who isn’t.

Original CBTO with 200.20X and new barrel from 2017: 2.360
CBTO with 200.20X bullet this week: 2.375 (bullet lot from 2020)

OK, today I’ve been searching this and other forums for more opinions and one experienced shooter said something that hit me: “make sure when doing throat erosion measurements you use the same bullet (or at least a bullet from the same lot) and use the same modified case.“ Also, Ned posted in a thread last year: “different Lots of bullets can give different readings“ and he touched on this above when he said he uses the same set of ten bullets for his measurements. Also, Medic505 mentioned the use of bullets from the same lot.

This got me going. I searched my bench drawers and found a 200.20X bullet from the lot I used in the original measurement in 2017. I had set it aside cause the meplat was not uniform when I did the pointing. USING THIS BULLET MY CBTO reads 2.366 !! Clearly in line with the numbers that several guys posted above and in the vicinity of .001 per hundred rounds.
With Berger’s reputation for uniform bullet dimensions, I had assumed uniformity between lots. Wrong!

MY LESSON LEARNED: when doing throat erosion measurements USE THE SAME BULLET or BULLET FROM THE SAME LOT. Ned

I suggest when you do your initial throat measurement put that bullet I an envelope and mark it with date and use that exact bullet for future erosion calculations.

Thanks for your valuable comments. This forum is Tops.

I also measure distance to "touching" using the Stoney Point tool (Hornady OAL Gauge). I select 10 bullets at random from a Lot of bullets and generally hang on to that measurement set for the life of that Lot of bullets, and usually for the life of the barrel. I measure using all 10 bullets and take the average. I do it that way to minimize the impact of variance in my measurement technique, bullet dimensions, etc. Even doing that, I consider my measurements over time to be an estimate only. If you switch to a different Lot of bullets, the measurement at a given round count may often be different, even if not hugely different.

Realistically, making an accurate claim of land erosion of .001" or .002" over a just few hundred rounds fired is a difficult thing to do using the Stoney Point tool, due to the inherent limitations of the tool and how it is used. It is probably a stronger assumption when measuring the difference between a barrel that has 2000 rounds through it to when it was new, especially if you make the same observation with multiple barrels over a long period of time, using the same bullet measurement set for the two measurements with each barrel, of course. Even that has a caveat in that by comparing measurements taken at zero rounds to a couple thousand or more rounds, you can't necessarily claim the erosion was perfectly linear with respect to the number of shots fired. In my hands, there is usually a measureable increase in the distance to touching after the first hundred rounds or so, then it seems to slow down a bit after the barrel has been broken in. Like Dean observed, I might not measure a statistically significant difference in the distance to touching the lands for the next 200 to 300 rounds after that. Eventually though, the distance to touching number will measurably increase in my hands. I suspect this is an effect of smoothing out any rough or sharp edges/corners in the throat that affect measurement via how the bullet actually touches the lands during the measurement process with the Stoney Point tool immediately after the barrel has been chambered, but that is only my guess.

Regardless of the rate of land erosion someone experiences, the most important thing in my mind is using the information as an indicator to determine whether some adjustment to the load is necessary. Unless I was seeing something like .010" erosion per 100 rounds in a .308 Win, it wouldn't bother me too much except as a consideration for whether I needed to re-check seating depth. Barrels are consumable items. As much as I would like to get 5000+ rounds of competition accuracy barrel life out of my .308 barrels, I recognize that it's probably only going to be 2000 to 3000 rounds, depending on the barrel and the loads fired through it. An early Bartlein barrel on one of my .308 F-TR rifles is currently at 3400+ rounds. I used a relatively mild Varget/185 Juggernaut load through it for most of its life. It has substantial fire-cracking and land erosion, and coppers up relatively quickly as a result. Nonetheless, 5 out of the last 6 F-TR MR (600 yd) matches I shot with that rifle were 200 point cleans with good X-counts. I ran out of the Lot of Juggernauts I had been using and it just didn't shoot the same with the new Lot, so I spun it off. I kept it for sentimental reasons and still have it. ;)
 
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