308 palma & 185 juggs silly question

[Jefferson]

OK I have 500 new palma brass from lapua, and the 185 juggs from berger to load,

FRESH VIRGIN BRASS (virgin bullets also)

I have a velocity in mind which is quite high and yet used by many of the top shooters in FTR and have come upon this number by asking them what they use,

the question I have is using H4895 with VIRGIN brass, what is the most velocity i can expect from this combo at the start

REASON FOR THE QUESTION-- 1. I do not think I can get to 2700 or a bit higher with a full load of H4895 until the brass has been fired a time or two? correct?

2. I wish to find a accurate load around this node area and am unsure whether I need to have fired brass in that gun to do it,

3. I an thinking that I do not want to use my magnetospeed to try and get to that node and develope a accurate load with VIRGIN BRASS for if I strech the cases then I am hooped,

thoughts please, as I do not wish to bother some of the guys I know but would rather hear from some of the crew here,

I am familiar with loading (ex-short range br champ but this is new to me and some of the br stuff does not apply to longer range as you may know, and also higher pressure and different cartridge)

thanks Jefferson

 

[Dos XX]

Barrel length? How long is the throat in your chamber?

I have not had a problem hitting 2700 with a 185 in a barrel 30" or longer using Varget.

 

[Jefferson]

barrel length is 30.5 inches, chamber coal is 2.950 to tip of bullet

Jefferson

 

[Jefferson]

Barrel length? How long is the throat in your chamber?

I have not had a problem hitting 2700 with a 185 in a barrel 30" or longer using Varget.

but on the first firing of the brass, thanks Jefferson

 

[Dos XX]

Yes with new brass. The usual disclaimer here. That is in my rifle with my chamber, and I worked up to the load. Work up to it and see what you get.

What makes you think you can't hit that number with new brass.

 

[Jefferson]

Yes with new brass. The usual disclaimer here. That is in my rifle with my chamber, and I worked up to the load. Work up to it and see what you get.

What makes you think you can't hit that number with new brass.

coming from a short range Br background it usually takes a cpuple of reloads before the brass really fits the chamber walls and gives you the best accuracy (sometimes fireforming can result in great groups also)

as I am newish to this FTR sport I just want to be a little careful in my approach as I have palma brass dedicated for the 185 juggs and a new gun and barrel, a separate approach from the 155 gun and barrel

some comments have been made that some shooters fire a really hot load in new brass and then throw the brass away or relagate the brass ot practice (I have not been able to confirm this yet so just speculating and not starting rumours)

since it now appears possible that there were a couple of respopnses to the 185 jugg load question with H4895 I should be Ok to pursue that with loading in new palma brass and will be contacting those gents as my chambe is long enough their pet load may be reduced by .5 or so of a grain and used to fine tune my load in the range I think it will be in with the usual disclaimers about different chronies, powder measures and barrels and so on) I use a A & D fx120I scale, custome BAT stiller and panda and borden actions, and weigh and fine tune my lopads to the kernel of powder and have the new hydralic press so I am a little experienced in how to get to a happy place and contrary to some I test at 100 to br standards and try to get very little vertical and horizontal in the absolute dead calm for testing.

soory to be so long winded but I do nto want to start a discussion about silly practices nor do I wish to convey information that is not correct but I do want to find a very accurate load to begin the journey to the center of the earth (OK 100 yard instead) with the helpful guidance of the wind.

thanks for the replies I should ask those guys for their end load so I can back off a grain and find the laod close to my tune window as suggested by some good canadian shooters

thanks again

Jefferson

 

[mysticplayer]

Hey there.

For point #1, yes, I agree with you. Going over 2700fps on the first firing may stretch the base and/or pockets more then desired. I found a very accurate forming load closer to 2650fps... not a huge drop in speed but much nicer for long term brass life.

For point #2, the fireforming load has to be developed for your rifle. If you have 200 to 300yds, it can be done as the 185J's track well so a well tuned load at 300yds will work out to 900m. I would load for the most accurate load at around that mid 2600fps. It will work out to 900m... maybe not as well as formed brass but if you don't have time, you do the best you can.

Or you can go blast through 150rds this week so that you can develop a load using formed brass. By the end of the 150rds, you will know the best forming load to use... then you can practise with the rest of your 500cases while forming brass.

And you will enter your match with brass ready to do its best and the velocity you want to reach.

For point#3, you may as well tune with the Magnetospeed. On a heavy barrel, I have not found the weight to change my tuning much. At least you will quickly find the redline to stop adding more powder.

Good luck.

Jerry

 

[Dos XX]

Are you guys saying the first firing at full load can stretch the base or pocket more than subsequent firings? If so, is this with neck sizing only or does it apply if you f/l size every firing? Interested.

I may be learning something I didn't know. This happens a lot to me.

 

[mysticplayer]

That is exactly what I am proposing. Brass is at its most ductile when new. As it is fired, it will work harden... why some will anneal the necks.

The base of the case doesn't need to expand much to get loose primer pockets so I tend to make the first firing of moderate pressure. Enough for the brass to move and fill the chamber but not enough to stretch things too much.

After one or two firings, the case head takes a set and is a perfect fit to that chamber and action. Now with addn pressure, there is no place for the brass to go and it can take a beating and last a good long time.

Jerry

 

[jlow]

You guys seem to forget that to get that piece of brass to become a case, there is quite a bit of work hardening that goes on. This is why the new case is in fact annealed before you get it. Some companies polish that anneal look before sending it out but they are all annealed.

 

[mysticplayer]

I dont think they stress the brass to magnum pressures

Jerry

 

[Dos XX]

I am struggling with the economics of it. I typically run 500 pieces of brass at a time. It would take a little over 3 lbs of powder, 500 primers, and 500 bullets to fire form that many cases. This would cost about $340.00, not counting barrel wear. That is pretty close to what 500 pieces of brass cost.

Are you shooting fire forming loads at matches to offset the cost?

 

[mysticplayer]

You gotta practise sometime don't you?

That is when I do my forming. Why I develop a load specific for forming.

Most of the time, accuracy is very useable... just velocity is lower then ideal.

Could I compete with these forming loads? I already do. If doing a multi distance or mid range match, use these forming loads.

Jerry

PS.. I also have barrels for practise and forming brass... leaving the best barrels with the lowest bore wear for big matches using formed brass

 

[jlow]

I dont think they stress the brass to magnum pressures

Jerry

You have mistakenly equate the magnitude of chamber pressure to degree of work hardening. Does not work that way.

 

[Down South]

I've shot new brass in big matches many times with full pressure loads with great results......To each his own i guess.

 

[jsthntn247]

It's Palma brass..... it's indestructible as far as primer pockets go. Lay the hammer down. I had a few pieces that I set aside for load development in my 308. 11 reloads at 42-44gr of Varget and a 215 Hybrid and pockets were still tight. Would have blown a regular Lapua pocket in 1 firing.

 

[Matthew Schwartzkopf]

I've shot new brass in big matches many times with full pressure loads with great results......To each his own i guess.

I recently tested my load with new palma brass with no prep done to the brass pushing the 185's at 2780. the two five shot groups had a SD of 3 and 2 respectively, which is the same as my load using brass with over 15 firings.

My old palma brass has over 15 reloads on them (I gotlazy and stoped counting). The only reason I am no longer using the same brass is because it will be left in Ireland because I don't want to bother with flying back with it.