308, lee collet and FL bushing die??

[jpspeeddemon]

i have a custom "tactical" 308 i want to start reloading for. In regards to the lee collet neck die, i hear great things about low runout. i think neck tension is impotant and was wondering if there are any ill affects from precisly controlling neck tension when FL sizing, then not having the same neck tension when neck sizing with a the lee collet die.

So, i FL size and achieve the neck tension i want (.002 under loaded) with something like a Redding Bushing FL sizer, then size the neck on that brass using a lee collet, will neck tension be different from FL size neck tension?

Thanks

 

[243DH]

If you have a FL bushing die I don't see why you want to mess around with the lee collet? I use a lee collet 223 die and it broke inside of 25 cases. Apparently I applied more then 10ft/lbs of force on the press handle and shreaded the threads off the aluminum plug that holds the guts of the collet die in. Easy fix went to parts store and got a steel oil drainplug in 3/4"x16 thread and a copper washer or two for proper clearence and fixed the shoddy die. It has done well but not for sure how accurate it is in regards to consistent nk. tension on every case compared to a real bushing die, FL or nk size only. Am thinking about replacing collet die with a FL bushing or a nk only bushing/ with body die combo. My lee collet gives about .001ish nk tension. You could run a .001 tension bushing in FL sizer but for a "tactical" rifle the feeding and reliability of a FL cased reload would trump any marginal gain that the lee die would give. I seriously doubt that using the lee inbetween fl sizing would give any accuracy benefits. The real accuracy gain would be in precisely controlling nk tension rd to rd (FL bushing wins vs lee), and getting rid of the expander ball in the bushing die reducing chance of banana cases. Just watch that the cases dont get the nk dinged up from ejection. If they do a carbide expander ball can be used with mica to help straighten out dings with good lubricity to avoid banana cases

 

[nhm16]

I have both bushing dies and Lee collet dies. I prefer the collet dies, will use them when available, and have actually had one made for my .284 Win., which I use in preference to my Redding bushing die.

Bushing dies work best if you neck turn, because you don't care the that outside of the neck is concentric, but the inside. If you don't neck turn, you just push the irregularities in neck thickness inside the neck. In other words, a bushing die has a level of indirection that the collet die doesn't. That said, if you neck turn, it is a great way to precisely control neck tension, and vary the amount of neck sizing. Also, I like the Redding bushing FL sizers more than the body die/neck sizer die (of whatever sort) combo, because I FL size (with the die properly adjusted via their competition shellholders for proper shoulder bump), because that saves me a step.

In a collet die, because the collet presses the neck against a mandrel, the inside of the neck will always be concentric. That actually a pretty smart design, since you don't have to neck turn for best results. This also means that if your cases are prone to forming a donut at the neck shoulder junction, the donut always gets pushed to the outside of the neck, where it won't mess with consistent bullet seating. The downside is, the neck tension is fixed by the mandrel you use. If you don't like the mandrel that came with the die, you have to turn it down or get a larger one from Lee. But in my experience, the sizes are pretty intelligently chosen. Lee made my .284 collet die with a mandrel that was 0.001" smaller than the Berger 180gr hybrids that I shoot, which is what I want. My only real complaint about the collet dies is that their finish is not as nice as a Redding die, so the collet can sometimes bind up, but you can polish the fingers of the collet to smooth them out.

As for the cap on top, if you break it, you are applying too much force. Once you squeeze the brass against the mandrel, you can't squeeze it any further. Any additional force you apply is directed to that cap, which is made of aluminum on purpose, so that it fails instead of something else more expensive. This is especially true on non-Lee presses, where the linkages can cam over for additional force.

 

[ReedG]

+1 on nhm16 ...

 

[243DH]

yeah it was with a rock chucker, way to much leverage compared to a lee press. Like I said the amount of force I applied to it was one hand from a sitting position not even trying, it just popped out. Bad threads I guess. I can tell when I seat bullets in a bushing die sized cases and when I seat them in my 223 collet die. Every once in awhile the bullets seat easier or harder in the 223 cases, but in both my 6brs and 243 they are just so darn consistent. Lapua brass in all, nk turn one 6br and the 223s, the rest are unturned. Maybe my 223 collet die is defective from Lee, its only abouta 12.00 dollar die. I still contend that if this is a tactical rifle that you should FL size every firing for maximum reliability.

 

[ReedG]

The Rock Chucker is a destroyer of Lee Collet dies. It's very hard to properly adjust a Collet die in one. The Collet die is intentionally made with an aluminum top plug to prevent damage to the die. The 'Chucker can be adjusted to properly use a Collet die, but you can't let it cam over. On smaller cases like 6 BR and 223, it barely takes more than the weight of your hand on the lever to Collet size a neck; a 308, -06, etc. take a bit more but very little. The brass in most case necks could be Collet sized with the force of your fingers. If the necks are not too hard, you can easily feel the neck give as it resizes.

With its ease of use, concentric necks, and no lube the Lee Collet Die is the best value in shooting. Even if you have one custom made to fit your brass/chamber, it costs less than most of the other neck-sizing options.

In my .308 with a .342 neck chamber, I can use WW, Rem or FC brass, all with different neck thicknesses, and get the same neck tension because it resizes the inside of the neck to the same diameter, regardless of neck thickness.

I think any handloader who takes the time to set a Collet die up properly will learn to love it.

 

[PREMOD70]

I too like the Lee collet die but I throw the rubber o-rings away and use a RCBS lock ring. I have resized the necks with the collet die more times than I will write because nobody would believe it without experiencing the same. It's a neat idea that I wish some of the other makers would pick up on but maybe a patent is preventing that from happening.

 

[Gregg Jacob]

If you're serious about reloading just get Redding Computition Dies and read everything about reloading and have fun.

 

[Heavies]

If you like the tension achieved by the collet die, then remove the bushing from the FL Die and use it like a body die.

FL size the case first, then collet the neck for the least run out. IMO two stage sizing is better for accuracy. Also, After sizing with the Lee Collet Neck Die, let the cases stand and 'rest' for a few days after sizing. I have noticed the brass springs out to a more consistent seating force, than of you were to seat bullets right away. This is a benefit, because this allows you to prep and size brass ahead of time, and have them ready to load at your convenience. This proceedure is the opposite of a bushing type die, where you need to seat bullets as soon as possible, after sizing, to get the most consistent seat force.

If you're serious about reloading just get Redding Computition Dies and read everything about reloading and have fun.

I beg to disagree that the Redding dies are the catch all, do all, There is nothing wrong with the Lee Collet Die, this design is the best for neck sizing. However, the problem with Lee is the finish of the die, but the collet on the mandrel sizing method is the best.

 

[PREMOD70]

I FL resize my .243 Winchester brass with a .308 Winchester FL die that was the expander removed when the brass is in need of reforming. After I resize the brass I neck size with the Lee collet die.

 

[jpspeeddemon]

Sounds like the lee collet has a lot of praise. As for FL sizing due to reliabilty and feeding, yes i plan to do that every 3-4 firings when the cases start to get hard to chamber.

Another question, if i FL size every firing (with bushing), how many firings can i expect out of Lapua, Winchester, and Federal Match brass? I dont expect to have super hot loads as i am not concerned with haiving mv above 2650 for the 175smk. I know lapua is tougher stuff and federal is a little soft.

just so you know, case necks will be annealed every 3-4 firings or whatever you guys suggest.

Thanks for all the great info!!

 

[Johnboy]

hey,I cannot say about the number of times with just useing a FL die.but by useing the collet with 3 fireings and FL on the 4th fireing I have loaded 15 cases 15 times.all so annealing the necks on the 4th fireing before I FL the case to just bump the shoulder back.matter of fact for me I just tossed out the 15 cases because of a small split on one of the 15 cases in the neck.( lapua brass and hot loads )

like said before the collet when set up right it really works.even in a rock chucker it works like a charm.but after polishing the collet and cone that works the collet with a little grease it just works.

 

[243DH]

Must be more tacticool then tactical, if brass life is more important then feeding. My hot loads with lapua brass (175smk@2750) FL-sized only, will last about 13-14 reloads before I figure I got my money's worth and pitch em. For the record I always turn my collet until it bottoms out on the case holder and then turn the collet an additional 2.5 more turns in.

 

[jpspeeddemon]

i doubt i fall under the "tacticool" category. I'm serious about the shooting i do, and i'm starting to shoot more than i can afford when buying factory match ammo, so brass life is important. It is good to know that your lapua brass lasted 14 firings only FL sizing and annealing. Maybe i will try this approach. I ask about case life becasue i have 800 once fired federal match brass and 300 once fired winchester brass as well as 100 new Lapua cases. I know people say federal brass is soft and u should expect 3-4 firings, but is that FL sized very time?

As for feeding reliability, i for sure will test feeding after each firing and neck sizing/FL sizing. If i am not comfortable with reliability after xx firings and neck sizing, then i will not go to a match, be it F-Class or tactical practical unless cases are FL sized. However if i find feeding to be 100% reliable after neck sizing, then there should be no worries.

Again thanks for all the info, keep it comin!

 

[ReedG]

If you have a custom or match chamber, then FL sizing is only moving the brass a thou or two. A factory chamber can be 6 to 8 thou oversized and FLing the cases every time will work-harden them quickly.

I have FC and WW cases in .308 that have been fired a dozen or more times and only neck-sized without any feeding problems. I anneal frequently and size only with Lee Collet Die.

 

[243DH]

your win and lapua will be good to go, but the federal match isn't worth doing the brass match prep work on. I went down that road with my first 308 about 10 yrs ago. I got 100rds of FGMM and decided to use the brass for reload after about 4-5 firings I had a bunch of loose primer pockets. This would happen regardless of wether you used a collet or FL die. Also I have had zero luck with nosler custom brass. It is nice and weight sorted and FH deburred but it is spendy and will last about as long as FGMM brass. I was getting 13-14 reloads without annealing too.

 

[Martin52]

I prefer the collet dies, will use them when available, and have actually had one made for my .284 Win., which I use in preference to my Redding bushing die.

Can you let me know where you got a collet die made ?

I get good results from my Lee Collet die.....but if I could get one made to Redding or Forster's high quality that would be great. I have broken one Lee Collet so far but the current one constantly gives me around 1 thou run out.

 

[PREMOD70]

My search has nobody but Lee Precision building a collet die, possibly a patent exists.

 

[BoydAllen]

Neck tension produced by a collet die can be increased by ordering a smaller mandrel (part that has the decapping pin and limits the travel of the collet fingers) If you have a bushing type FL die, you can remove the bushing and have a body die. With this, you can first use the collet die and then run the cases through your body die. The order matters. Using the collet die first produces better runout. As far as wrecking collet dies with a Rockchucker or any other press goes, I put that down to operator error. I have always set my collet dies so that there was a very slight toggling felt at the top of the ram stroke. The way Lee tells you to set up is to run the die down far enough so that the ram will not top out and to use a given amount of force on the press handle. A friend who does this tries for about 15#. A long time ago, when I was operating in the "more is better" mode, I actually deformed the bottom of the sliding sleeve/collet piece of a 30-30 die. This alerted me that my ham fisted approach needed some attention. At that point I realized that changing or modifying the mandrels was the only way to increase neck tension, and never again had the problem. One more tip, never operate the die without a case in place. You will spring the collet fingers inward, causing problems when inserting an unsized case.

 

[I_shoot_for_fun]

I'll second the operator error comment, no offense intended. I have and use them for at least half a dozen calibers, all on a Rockchucker and I've never had a problem blowing the top out. And the other poster is correct, they are made to strip out.

Key thing with the rockchucker is that you want that handle to bottom out everytime so you can't put too much tension on it. The window of proper adjustment is narrow, yes, but it is easily achieved with some care.

It used to be at the link below but does not come up anymore. It was well posted by a fellow by the name of John Valentine about 3-4 years ago

http://www.benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49899

This is what I followed to properly adjust all of mine and now that I've used them for a few years, I wouldn't be without them for all calibers that I load for.