.308 into the lands; better groups

[desertrat]

I shot my best 3 shot group ever with a new Savage model 10 in .308 but I can't seem to be able to duplicate it now.

I have a .30-06 rem 700 w a Harry Lawson thumb hole that I can get true .5 to .4 inch groups at 100 yds. However, a friend out shoots me with his new .308 and I can't touch what he's doing..consistent one hole groups at 100 with ease. So I purchased the new 308 and have had one spectacular group and now want more of the same.

Last week with the 308, I tried about 8 different weight loads of Varget, RL-15, and XBR 8208 with new Nosler brass, CCI 200, and 168 grain SMK & AMAX.

It was quickly apparent that my rifle liked the RL-15 the best and nearing 44 grains, but the range was closing so second day I took left over 44 grain loads of RL15 and reloaded some new ones to 44.5 grains of RL-15.

The only other change was that I originally had the AMAXs .010 off lands and I varied the seating depth further to see if I could get something more consistent. I was doing well with the 44 grain RL-15 and .010 off lands, best groups down to .2 to .4's at 100yds but some groups were as large as .5 to .7 inches which I didn't like at all.

It was getting late with last call at the range so I tried some of the newest ones with 44.5 grains of RL 15 and into the lands about .010. The bolt was a little hard to close as I felt it cam the bullet into the rifling. I was a little nervous with the bolt tough to close but it was easily the best shooting ever in my life, a one hole 3 shot group at 100 yds under .100" (measured as best as I know how) which I still can't believe.

Several others witnessed and measured the group for me too and all came up with a group in 0's with 0.033 as the smallest and 0.068 largest for their guess. When I measure as best I can, to the largest edge marks on the paper, and subtract .308 from it, I obtain 0.053"

We are not experts and don't know how to truly measure something this crazy small and I'm trying to figure out what I did to get that and repeat it. I went out the next day but I was scared to have the bolt cam so much, so I seated the remaining rounds back so they just touch the lands when I close the bolt. So the next day I tried again to see if I could do something close to that, but I couldn't come close.

The conditions were the same almost, 80-84 degrees, same time of day, slight wind 4-5 mph, only thing different was that I didn't just clean it, and that I put the AMAX back about .010" so I could close the bolt without having to cam them into lands.

That group that I'll call my .053 group, was shot with just after I cleaned the rifle, only 8 rounds went through it prior to pulling that off. I tried my best the very next day and could only pull off something like a 4 shot group into the mid to high .2s Nothing even close.

Do you think it is the seating depth or the fact that I swabbed down the barrel with some hoppe's just prior to that group? Or is that just a fluke and never ever going to happen again?

I know the rifle can do it, now if I just can. :'(

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Re: .308 into the lands or barrel fouling?

Haha, complaining about .2s with a 308. Seriously I doubt anyone can get consistant zeros, evan with a ppc.

 

[dansig]

Re: .308 into the lands or barrel fouling?

getting a .3-.4 groups with a .308 is quite good, expecting groups below .2 is unrealistic, expecting groups in the .0 is like expecting to win the lottery every time.. just about as much chance.

I have a 6mm BR and when I shoot in the .2 I am really happy, some groups measure in the .1 but not many... only had 2 groups so far in the .0 and 1000 rounds fired....

 

[Shynloco]

Re: .308 into the lands or barrel fouling?

Like Dansig said, expect the 6mmbr to shoot great groups and "hope" the .308 even gets close. But consistency is the name of the game and being unable to duplicate a group with an identicial load means to me it was a fluke. And if I might say, my .308 hates being loaded into the lands and loves the jump. In fact I get my best groups loading to SAAMI specs and that being shot with a general production Ruger M77V that I bought new in 1983 with the same bull barrel. (I keep putting off putting a Shilen or a Kreiger on her that should improve the groups that are in the low .3's or .4's and below sometime if I'm doing my p;art). Now I shoot Sierra 168 gr HPBT's and my best consistent groups (@100 yds) have been using RE15 @ 42 grs. A close second to that is using Varget at the same or near the same amount, but I find the greatest variation between the two powders occurs when it's cooler and below around 68 - 72 degrees, with Varget being the more sensitive to lower temperature. But if I might suggest, back down a bit on your loads. And think about running a few dry patches down your barrel between different powders and bullets. I usually run one wet patch and a few dry patches between bullet/powder changes during testing. And also keep in mind, your rifle might just not like that particular bullet. I've found mine is tempermental at times with some bullets, even Lapua's where she flatly gets pissed and won't cooperate. Thats when the 6mmbr comes out and makes me happy again. Good luck!

 

[desertrat]

Re: .308 into the lands or barrel fouling?

Well I am rather new to target shooting and guess I should be happy with what I've gotten so far. I'll guess I can just live with it but now that I know what is possible, I think it's just me that's screwing up... I still want one hole w 3 at 100 again and now want that with 5.

But I've been reloading almost twenty years now for hunting and see how some others consistently shoot great groups; I just want the same. A couple of back fusions and now the shooting bench is my new golf game, so off to reload another round of 50 and hopefully I can get something consistent.

I am going to try running a wet patch or two again before (and I do run a mop down it to dry things out) and see if that's it. If nothing improves, I'll try putting them back into the lands. I do notice slight signs of pressure though when into the lands; primer is starting to get flat and I can see cam marks circled into the primer as well. Thanks Shyn for the help and maybe I'll back it down to 44 grains and see if that helps..

Thanks all for the help so far and I'll see if anything helps me get more consistant and I guess I can't expect too much. I really want all shots touching at 100. I can do 3 shots, but 5 shots all touching seems to be a problem. I'm using a bipod and rear sandbag. But will try a front rest this next time out.

I am seriously getting into this and now thinking about a 6mmPPC or maybe a 30br. The more I look into this the more I learn..I didn't know Dublin,GA. was a place for benchrest. We moved there when I was in high school and had a farm in Dublin for years. I went to Trinity Christian HS and Dublin HS. I could of had tons of help if I would of known!

 

[amlevin]

Re: .308 into the lands or barrel fouling?

And if I might say, my .308 hates being loaded into the lands and loves the jump.

Ditto with mine. It's a Rem 700 5-R Milspec and the "Jump" when loaded to 2.800 is .130".

I have numerous saved targets in the "teens" at the 100 yard range. Whenever I experiment with longer OAL's it just gets worse so I end up back at 2.800. Best load for this rifle is 43.5 gr Varget with a Nosler 175 gr Custom Comp. For some reason the rifle just doesn't like Sierras. It seems to have an attitude problem whenever I try them. Also does well with 168 gr A-Max.

The barrel is factory and the only changes I've made are a timney trigger and bedded the action. The aluminum action block isn't all it's cracked up to be when mass produced. Some Devcon made all the difference in the world.

Now if I could just shoot every day as well as the rifle is capable of. But then that's part of the fun in shooting isn't it?

 

[necchi]

Re: .308 into the lands or barrel fouling?

I think it's just me that's screwing up...

Not to single out desertrat or anyone else in any way, but I see this alot with many posters on this and other shooting forums.

It's pretty simple actually, the rifle is just a tool, and while it is important to work all the variables of the tool to a fine point, the bottom line is,
Someone has to hold the rifle and squeeze the trigger.

The Human factor of accurate shooting is a HUGE variable;
*It's a Physical game, did you have coffee or a sweet soda drink? Did you sleep well that night? Did you have a well balanced meal to supply the muscles with needed nutriant?

*It's a Psychological game. Again where you rested? Are you anxious to get the best group? Are there other distractions? Even chatting with shooters next to me, or a proclimation of the goal will put me off because it increases expectation and I'll blow a bench technique

*Too many things to really list. My best groups seem to just happen when I'm shooting, with ME if I'm under pressure with a make or break group or shot, 9 times out of 10 I'll blow it,, my head game is my biggest competitor.
I really gotta be "in the zone" to make it work right.

If every shooter was as perfect as his rifle shooting for group wouldn't be any fun, there wouldn't be a 1st, 2nd and 3rd place,,

 

[jo191145]

Re: .308 into the lands or barrel fouling?

I quess I'm like necchi. My guns usually shoot better when I'm not trying or expecting it ;D

desertrat you've just been bitten by the "Accuracy Bug"
Your Savage seems to be treating you well. Big Savage fan myself.
You should be happy where you are but I understand the infliction.
Keep those lugs greased (not oiled)

Eventually you may want to try a box of Berger 155 VLD's. My Sav 308 loves em .010" into the lands with Varget.
Not knocking A-Maxes but I've found if you want consistently small groups Berger is the "off the shelf" bullet to use.
R-15 runs a touch dirty and finding the sweet fouling point, cleaning regimine for your particular tube may take awhile. Thats fine.
After you've shot the barrel awhile don't be hesitant to try Varget or anything else again. New factory barrels personalities can change with time.

Best advice? If you can afford it submit to the infliction and get yourself a 6PPC. Or even a 6BR tube in your desired twist that you can screw right onto that Savage.
Getting bit by the bug is fun and a few factory barrels are capable of amazing accuracy and also make excellent learning tools.
But for a guy with a fused back the 308W might not be the best tool to do all the learning your destined for. Just something to think about.

 

[desertrat]

Re: .308 into the lands or barrel fouling?

Thanks jo191145,

I think I may purchase a barrel for Savage in 6BR, or I may go out and find a 6ppc if I can find one that's affordable. If I get a 6BR, I would like to know what is decent or commonly being used? What type of chamber I guess is the biggest question and if I should get something tight enough to turn the necks down. Also, I'd like to be able to (as I've read it's possible) to change out the barrels myself w the Savage. I don't know what I'd have to use to check headspace.

I'd use a local smith here in town, but they always seemed to be slammed and I'd miss out on a month or two worth of shooting if I go that route.

Back to the depth into the lands, I've found for the 308 and this particular load/bullet, that it is definitely better to have it jammed a little. I have been able to again obtain some very nice 4 shot (with right conditions, well under .5) groups at 100 with the original set up, and a cleaned barrel. Getting a few 4 shot groups all into one ragged hole at 100, now off to see what I can do consistently at 200.

I know some may wonder why 4 shot, not 3 or 5 shot? Well, I have been tyring to get 5 shots, but with a local range lots of factors keep me from being able to get to 5 before we have to stop. I am trying to keep everything the same including shooter's concentration and wind etc. but having a guy next to you throwing AK brass into your face makes for a tough shot. The savage seems to shoot better w/o large magnums w muzzle breaks going off next to it, or getting hit with brass.

At my local range, some of the serious shooters claim that a fouled barrel shoots best, some claim to clean them after every 2 shots.

I think for this particular rifle, its having a combination of cleaning after about 10-12 shots and having it jammed a little into the lands. I've read about 15 letters published in PSM regarding depth to the lands and I have a feeling that it is at a nice barrel vibration/frequency at this particular set up for it to be jammed .

It seems from what I've read, faster powders like to jump, and slower ones seem to like be placed into the lands, depending on bullet type/brand and powder used, neck tension. I think I'll take out the chrony and now start taking down what velocity is working out best. I'm betting on a sweet spot.

I will try the Berger's next and see what happens. Hopefully it will make it easier for me to be consistent. I'll try and see what happens and let y'all know. I feel a little foolish to start off with the 308, but I've read of others doing the same thing until they went for a 6BR or PPC.

Regards

 

[rain164845]

Re: .308 into the lands or barrel fouling?

I was a little nervous with the bolt tough to close but it was easily the best shooting ever in my life, a one hole 3 shot group at 100 yds under .100" (

Why don't you go back to this if there were no pressure signs? After all, it is the load that shot the best.

Joe

 

[desertrat]

Re: .308 into the lands or barrel fouling?



Why don't you go back to this if there were no pressure signs? After all, it is the load that shot the best.

Joe

"I do notice slight signs of pressure though when into the lands; primer is starting to get flat and I can see cam marks circled into the primer as well. "

reason for backing off and asking questions..


after asking,

"I am going to try running a wet patch or two again before (and I do run a mop down it to dry things out) and see if that's it. If nothing improves, I'll try putting them back into the lands."


nothing much changes so;

"Back to the depth into the lands, I've found for the 308 and this particular load/bullet, that it is definitely better to have it jammed a little."

 

[rain164845]

Re: .308 into the lands or barrel fouling?

Sorry, reading comprehension fail.

Better to be safe than sorry with reloading.

At least you found out that it likes that bullet into the lands.
Joe

 

[desertrat]

Another 3 shot with RL-15, grouped a 0.079 at 100yds with the .308. I'm so caught up in this quest now...I've mangaged a couple more in the 1s and 2s with this load. I won't confess that the 4th and 5th shot put me into a .464 group.

Thanks for all the help so far. Using Nosler or Lapua brass, 43.5 gr of RL-15, 168 Amax, CCI(reg or BR) or Rem primer, into lands, and clean barrel w 2 foul shots. All brass chamfered, and ultra sound cleaned, FL sized. Switching to neck sizing only after this lot of 150.

I tried 155gr SMK with several loads of RL-15 but nothing is coming along as well as the 168 Amax.

Brass not as critical difference although it looks like i may only get 4-5 reloads with Nosler(primer pockets getting lose now) and neither CCI BR or normal or Rem primer creating much difference in grouping, just mild .3" POI vertical higher when using Rem. Maybe they are a little hotter than the CCI??

I've been having a little competition with some friends about twice a month. We've been doing best of 3 rounds, 5 shot at 100 and 200. We alternate sometime for best group and sometimes score depending on what targets used.

Also going to work with 8208 xbr as my buddy is getting great results with it. Breakfast is won or lost usually within .05-.10 on groups and sometimes who ever has the better x ring group. Hard laughter when a flyer puts down the .5+ group

Powder type and cleaning definitely changing group size the most from what I've seen.

I am getting there little by little, but really perplexed when I've been able to get a few 3 shots grouped in the Zeros and the following 4th & 5th shot off making a terrific group go north of .4" group. I really want all 5 to be a little tighter....making the choking sound now as buddy laughing at me. This is a lot of hard work!

We all learning to do a little better..wind is a serious pain lately as we've found out. Been spoiled on little, none, to mild 4-5mph winds. Last week with 15-20mph gust at 200 yd. making 1.5" groups strung L-R across target. And I was thinking a .9" was bad.

And no more caffeine as I've noticed that i really can see my heartbeat on the target..seriously. Other shooters overherd us talking about it and couldn't stop laughing about it.. Why people gotta be hating?

Cleaning it after every 10 rounds seems to be helping a lot. It's relatively new with about 150 rounds fired so far. Just my personal experience so far to share what I'm learning.

regards

 

[Leaddog]

I have a little experience with the .308. The .308 is a score shooter, meant to be played in the wind at longer distances. Shooting 5 shot 100 yard groups is not it's strength. One day it is a one holer, the next (under the same conditions), a .5 gun. A sometimes frustrating experience. Much like a dog chasing his tail.

Once a load is worked up (an easy to do process), then it is time to work with the biggest variable of all..... The nut behind the bolt.

Consistent recoil management and trigger control is the key to precision with the .308. If your quest are tiny groups consistently, check out what our free recoiling BR brethren are using. You won't see any .308's there.

Dry fire routines will also help. Having fun should be the biggest goal of all.

 

[markm87]

I have a little experience with the .308. The .308 is a score shooter, meant to be played in the wind at longer distances. Shooting 5 shot 100 yard groups is not it's strength. One day it is a one holer, the next (under the same conditions), a .5 gun. A sometimes frustrating experience. Much like a dog chasing his tail.

I've lived this torture.

 

[desertrat]

It may be true.. I may be "chasing my tail around" but don't knock me for trying..After just 40 rounds with the RL-15/Amax 168 set up, I've mangaged to get 2 groups into the zeros (and they hanging on the wall).. I've only put 150 through it and most were trying to find a good combo..here are some things that have really seemed to have helped me get consistent

Ditched bi-pod..went w front rest/bag, rear bag.. Consistent w my hold with my left hand coming back instead of on rifle stock...a light hold. Much lighter than what I use on '06 or 300 Win Mag.. cleaning with the new Hoppe's Elite after 10 shots. (if you haven't tried it, you won't be disappointed) I think the cleaning is one of the biggest factors here in obtaining some small groups.

I really concentrate on getting the sight picture all lined up w as little adjustment as possible to rifle before setting one off. Practicing my breathing and timing of shots, and I'm only using vertical turret now when moving between 100/200.

I may go for a different trigger here as I like the 14 oz Rifle Basic trigger on my .223 better than the Accutrig; no more chasing load combo..for now I'm sticking with the 168 Amax and RL-15, it just plain works out better than everything else tried.

In response to those who may think the 308 is a bit large..I understand and everyone is right about it. But in defense, I didn't know about a 6mm BR or PPC. I knew the triple deuce was the hot ticket before...O.K. so I'm a little behind the times..I thought the .44 mag was the worlds most powerful handgun too..And I know what youre thinking...was it 5 or 6 shots???

I went from hunting to plotting on paper after a few major surgeries.. I've always have used larger 30 cals/magnums for hunting in the big wide open west, so this 308 is very comfortable to me when I punch paper.

I'll probably get a 6mm barrel for the Savage, but I really think this 308 (and the idiot behind it) is capable of some fine shooting and I'm just going to try to get a bit better. When conditions are good, a 5 shot group under .5 is a great group for me now. But it's sure is a great feeling to see 3 go into the same hole and to know the competition is going to be buying the next round!

So thanks to everyone with the help so far.. I am appreciative as the advice is helpful and will keep working on it.

 

[greenron15]

Re: .308 into the lands or barrel fouling?


I shoot the GAP Crusader out to300 yards with reloader 15 44 grains and jamed 20 thousands into the land. It hold better the .50 MOA. So you makeing a general statement like that is wrong. It depends on the rifle.

Like Dansig said, expect the 6mmbr to shoot great groups and "hope" the .308 even gets close. But consistency is the name of the game and being unable to duplicate a group with an identicial load means to me it was a fluke. And if I might say, my .308 hates being loaded into the lands and loves the jump. In fact I get my best groups loading to SAAMI specs and that being shot with a general production Ruger M77V that I bought new in 1983 with the same bull barrel. (I keep putting off putting a Shilen or a Kreiger on her that should improve the groups that are in the low .3's or .4's and below sometime if I'm doing my p;art). Now I shoot Sierra 168 gr HPBT's and my best consistent groups (@100 yds) have been using RE15 @ 42 grs. A close second to that is using Varget at the same or near the same amount, but I find the greatest variation between the two powders occurs when it's cooler and below around 68 - 72 degrees, with Varget being the more sensitive to lower temperature. But if I might suggest, back down a bit on your loads. And think about running a few dry patches down your barrel between different powders and bullets. I usually run one wet patch and a few dry patches between bullet/powder changes during testing. And also keep in mind, your rifle might just not like that particular bullet. I've found mine is tempermental at times with some bullets, even Lapua's where she flatly gets pissed and won't cooperate. Thats when the 6mmbr comes out and makes me happy again. Good luck!

 

[holstil]

Just a tid bit info only, but I think the 308 holds the 600yd group record. Like .470 something. Man, 5 shot 7/16" from 600yds with an 08, incredible. I believe it was John Lewis unless it has been broken. Heck, I don't mind seeing that at 200yds.
I know it's just one group, but who wouldn't want to shoot it.

Jim

 

[jo191145]

I don't think anyones knocking you desertrat.
I myself applaud you for "beginning" to pay attention to fouling and the target.
You've been blessed/cursed with what I call a Savage training barrel.
It can teach you plenty about accuracy if you listen to what its telling you "AND" you try to give it what its asking for.


Now heres a real oddball idea.
If the CCI's are printing low perhaps you should try 3 shots of Remmy primers followed by two of CCI for one five shot group ;D
To compensate for your POI drift after 3 rds.

Personally I don't think it will work but it may be an interesting test not to mention educational.

 

[amlevin]

I know it's just one group, but who wouldn't want to shoot it.

Jim

It's usually just "one group" that keeps people coming back to the range. Once they've tasted accuracy they keep up the hunt. That's what makes this a great hobby. Hard to get bored.