308 and - Berger 168 Hybrids- Getting started

[klvee]

Hello everyone. I need some help with my first precition 308 rounds.
I'm new to the forum as well as reloading, so any help will be much appreciated.

Although this are my first rounds, I've always been interested in this topic and I've been reading a lot lately, but there's still a lot to learn.
I'm going to be reloading for my Tikka Roughtech in 308, with a 22" Barrel, with some Federal fireformed brass, Berger 168 Hybrid Target bullets, Vihtavouri N550 and CCI Large Rifle Primers n200. I've to get things clear here, I'm not in the best country when it comes to reloading so there is no much room to try other components, what you see here is what I'm stuck with and my goal is to get as much precition as I can with what I have. Being able to shoot somewhat constantly at 1000yds is my primary objective.

1- The CBTO lenght to the lands came out at 2.280" when measured with the Hornady OAL gauge using these same pills, so here comes the first question: with how much jump should I start with? Has anyone had previous experience with this bullet regarding seating depth?
I was thinking that .020 or .030 off the lands would be a good base line in order to find the optimum charge weight, and go from there. If later on I feel like my groups may improove I always have the possibility to play with the lenght slightly.
I also attach a few pictures of the bullet loaded into the case at max CBTO lenght (touching the lands) because I'm worried about not having enought meat to preperly grab the bullet in place (keep in mind I'm considering seat it about .020-30" or so further in). What do you think?
Note: I'm not worried about mag lenght since I can always find a 30-06 mag and drop a long action bolt stop or even a 6.5CM mag wich wouldn't require a bolt stop swap.

2- Regarding charge weight, I think I'm going to start with a ladder test (maybe 15 rounds with 0.2gr increments starting from 43.0 up to 46.0?)
I've no access to reloading books at leat for now so if someone is kind enough to share loading data from something like Berger Reloading Manual or any other source that would be great, since the only info I've been able to get online about this powder and bullet was Vihtavouri's web page, and I'd like to see other comparatives.

Lastly, my plan is to have an all year round load wich I understand is not the easiest thing to do with this powder considering how temp. sensitive it is. Temperatures here may vary from 5°C (40F) up to 35°C (95F) so maybe doing my tests with middle ground temperatures is the best idea, trying not to use the last nodes right before I see over pressure signs.

I'll keep you updated when I try my loads and we go from there Thanks in advance

 

[3Sigma]

App in the Google play store.

 

[3Sigma]

Screen shot from the app with your bullet and powder combination. The federal brass will be a bit different, so as always YMMV.

 

[Alaska Bush Man]

Hello everyone. I need some help with my first precition 308 rounds.
I'm new to the forum as well as reloading, so any help will be much appreciated.

Although this are my first rounds, I've always been interested in this topic and I've been reading a lot lately, but there's still a lot to learn.
I'm going to be reloading for my Tikka Roughtech in 308, with a 22" Barrel, with some Federal fireformed brass, Berger 168 Hybrid Target bullets, Vihtavouri N550 and CCI Large Rifle Primers n200. I've to get things clear here, I'm not in the best country when it comes to reloading so there is no much room to try other components, what you see here is what I'm stuck with and my goal is to get as much precition as I can with what I have. Being able to shoot somewhat constantly at 1000yds is my primary objective.

1- The CBTO lenght to the lands came out at 2.280" when measured with the Hornady OAL gauge using these same pills, so here comes the first question: with how much jump should I start with? Has anyone had previous experience with this bullet regarding seating depth?
I was thinking that .020 or .030 off the lands would be a good base line in order to find the optimum charge weight, and go from there. If later on I feel like my groups may improove I always have the possibility to play with the lenght slightly.
I also attach a few pictures of the bullet loaded into the case at max CBTO lenght (touching the lands) because I'm worried about not having enought meat to preperly grab the bullet in place (keep in mind I'm considering seat it about .020-30" or so further in). What do you think?
Note: I'm not worried about mag lenght since I can always find a 30-06 mag and drop a long action bolt stop or even a 6.5CM mag wich wouldn't require a bolt stop swap.

2- Regarding charge weight, I think I'm going to start with a ladder test (maybe 15 rounds with 0.2gr increments starting from 43.0 up to 46.0?)
I've no access to reloading books at leat for now so if someone is kind enough to share loading data from something like Berger Reloading Manual or any other source that would be great, since the only info I've been able to get online about this powder and bullet was Vihtavouri's web page, and I'd like to see other comparatives.

Lastly, my plan is to have an all year round load wich I understand is not the easiest thing to do with this powder considering how temp. sensitive it is. Temperatures here may vary from 5°C (40F) up to 35°C (95F) so maybe doing my tests with middle ground temperatures is the best idea, trying not to use the last nodes right before I see over pressure signs.

I'll keep you updated when I try my loads and we go from there Thanks in advance

Easiest Berger Bullets to reload in 308 win
168gr Classic Hunter
185gr Classic Hunter
175gr OTM Tactical Bullet

Varget or IMR 4064
Prefer WW brass
For extended range for 308 Win the 175 OTM is made for it …….especially if you 1:10 twist but will work in 1:12 twist
Yes 2.800” COAL
Normally N140 and N540 is the most common for 308 Win.

 

[D-4297]

Since the OP stated he was trying to shoot at 1,000 yards as his goal , I would recommend the following items , if they are available .
Berger : 185gr. OTM , 185gr. Juggernaut Target , or Target Hybrid . 200gr. Hybrid , 200.20x .
From my own experience ; In Vietnam , and on the range a 168gr. Bullet is not a good selection for shooting at 1,000 yards , simply due to the fact that , they tend to become unstable in the Transonic range , or as they lose velocity around 800 yards .

Powder : N-150 is being used by many F-TR shooters in .308 competition . In my opinion , N-140 is viable , but it has a more narrow loading window than N-150 , and the N-140 is a "hotter" burning powder , that would reduce barrel life . Again ; It comes down to what is available to the OP , as to what he can acquire .

 

[Straightshooter1]

Hello everyone. I need some help with my first precition 308 rounds.
I'm new to the forum as well as reloading, so any help will be much appreciated.

Although this are my first rounds, I've always been interested in this topic and I've been reading a lot lately, but there's still a lot to learn.
I'm going to be reloading for my Tikka Roughtech in 308, with a 22" Barrel, with some Federal fireformed brass, Berger 168 Hybrid Target bullets, Vihtavouri N550 and CCI Large Rifle Primers n200. I've to get things clear here, I'm not in the best country when it comes to reloading so there is no much room to try other components, what you see here is what I'm stuck with and my goal is to get as much precition as I can with what I have. Being able to shoot somewhat constantly at 1000yds is my primary objective.

1- The CBTO lenght to the lands came out at 2.280" when measured with the Hornady OAL gauge using these same pills, so here comes the first question: with how much jump should I start with? Has anyone had previous experience with this bullet regarding seating depth?
I was thinking that .020 or .030 off the lands would be a good base line in order to find the optimum charge weight, and go from there. If later on I feel like my groups may improove I always have the possibility to play with the lenght slightly.
I also attach a few pictures of the bullet loaded into the case at max CBTO lenght (touching the lands) because I'm worried about not having enought meat to preperly grab the bullet in place (keep in mind I'm considering seat it about .020-30" or so further in). What do you think?
Note: I'm not worried about mag lenght since I can always find a 30-06 mag and drop a long action bolt stop or even a 6.5CM mag wich wouldn't require a bolt stop swap.

2- Regarding charge weight, I think I'm going to start with a ladder test (maybe 15 rounds with 0.2gr increments starting from 43.0 up to 46.0?)
I've no access to reloading books at leat for now so if someone is kind enough to share loading data from something like Berger Reloading Manual or any other source that would be great, since the only info I've been able to get online about this powder and bullet was Vihtavouri's web page, and I'd like to see other comparatives.

Lastly, my plan is to have an all year round load wich I understand is not the easiest thing to do with this powder considering how temp. sensitive it is. Temperatures here may vary from 5°C (40F) up to 35°C (95F) so maybe doing my tests with middle ground temperatures is the best idea, trying not to use the last nodes right before I see over pressure signs.

I'll keep you updated when I try my loads and we go from there Thanks in advance

For shooting out to 1000 yds., I agree with D-4297, that 168 tends to not do well at that range. Using something no less than 175 grs with a good BC is a better choice. The only round that's less than 175 grs that has done well at long range is the new 169 SMK.

 

[Laurie]

The 168gn Berger Hybrid IS a 1,000 yard bullet. There is nothing wrong with the bullet weight per se, rather that older 168gn designs typified by the 1960s Sierra MK of that weight were intended for short-range shooting and their boat-tail angles are too steep once speeds drop into the trans-sonic band. In the right set-up, the Hybrid performs well at all distances. I used this bullet in 800-1,000 yard F/TR matches at UK national level with some success around 10 years ago.

As to jump, my experience was that it wouldn't perform well at the usual 5 to 20 thou jumps that are normally effective with tolerant tangent ogive bullets. I got excellent results by seating them slightly into the lands. Not jam-seating, rather a mild entry into the leade that causes just enough resistance to bolt closure to be barely felt. Others in GB F/TR who tried the bullet found the same thing. The alternative appears to be to seat them with considerable jump, but as the 'barely-in' setting worked for me, I never tried that. (IME, no two 30-cal Hybrid designs behave the same way in this respect despite Berger's claim that they have the jump-tolerance of traditional tangent ogive models.)

Having said all this, heavier 308s give better results at long distances taking all likely match wind conditions into account, which is why the Berger 200-20X is loaded by the majority of top long-range F/TR competitors these days. I personally always preferred the Berger 155.5 LRBT and the 168 Hybrid in my F/TR shooting days for their softer recoil compared to 185s and heavier, but that was a personal preference.

 

[boltman13]

I have serious doubts you can drive any 168 gr bullet with a 22" barrel to Mach 1.1 at 1,000 yds. to stay above the transonic velocity at a sane chamber pressure. With only a 22' tube even the 175's are iffy.

 

[Ned Ludd]

All .30 cal 168s are NOT created equal. The 168 Hybrid is better than most. The only 168 bullet that genuinely suffers from dynamic instability past around 700 yd or so is the Sierra 168 gr Matchking. That happens because of its relatively steep ~13 degree boattail angle. It does NOT mean that all .30 cal 168s suffer from dynamic instability.

The Berger 168 Hybrid is an excellent design with a BC far higher than bullets bullets in its weight class. It is one of the few designs I have ever used where the BC is high enough that it can often match (or even exceed) the performance of the next higher weight class of bullets (i.e. 175s to 185s). It is usually not possible to do this becasue the lighter bullets with lower BC usually can't be driven fast enough at safe operating pressure to overcome the BC deficit as compared to the longer heavier bullets in the next higher weight class. That does not mean I wiuld expect the operfoiemance of the 168 Hybrid at 1000 yd to match that of the 200.20X bullet. The 168 Hybrid is not a 200 gr bullet, so it can't realistically match that kind of performance. Nonetheless, it can do very well at 1000 yd.

The OPs choice of N550 is probably not ideal for 168s, being a bit on the slow side for .30 cal bullets in that weight class. If the N550 doesn't work out as well as hoped, Varget or H4895 might be suitable replacements, but you have what have, so hopefully the N550 will do the job. With any luck, you might be able to hit a higher/faster node with the N550 and take full advantage of the 168s high BC.

 

[Ray123]

The Berger 168 box of 500 I have....168 gr VLD Hunting...has not been accurate in any of the 8 308s or even 300 blkout I've tried it in, from 12, 10, 9, 8 twist barrels. Most every 168gr bullet I've tried beats it in accuracy. I've been shooting them in the 300 blackout as plinking fodder to get rid of them.
I have a 22" barreled hunting rifle with a Bartlein 5 5 barrel 9 twist , and have run the 168 gr Berger to 2943 fps COAL 2.884" mag length, for speed load...
I use 9 twist cause the 308 bullets that get ya there better are the heavier ones excellent accuracy, 200.2 20X for example 2685 fps 7.7 S/D from a 22" 9 twist...or long seated 200 SMK on the 2740 fps area top was at 2772 fps.
For a 12 twist standard 308 Win ...My choice over the 168 gr was the 155gr Lapua Scenar bullet accurate 2975 to 3000 fps area, will shoot well to 1400yds...provided me a 1st rd hit at 1400 yds on a pop can painted white, so it could be seen. And many 3 shot groups that were hand size. I shot 17,000 rds of 155 gr Lapua, Lapua 308 LR primer brass, Varget, and Fed match primers, no secret recipe here, low SD and accuracy, barrel after barrel...26" or longer I settled on 27" 12 twist for my use, targets and varmints out to 1400 yds..with a "standard" 308.
My 30" target is a long action 8 twist to feed long cartridges heavy 200gr 2856 fps to 230 gr bullets out of the mag like 225 ELDM at 2675 fps. Spent a lot of time with the 308 case ovr the years...but still working on getting rid of that 500 box of Berger 168 gr, the most inaccurate 168 gr bullet I have ever tried...they have been embarrassing even in an AR 10, cheap Speer 168 out shoot them...and the 15 cent Speer 130 grain Varmint really smoke them shot .3" and. 4" back to back 5 shot groups in and AR 10, with a Proof barrel...but they will best the military 147 gr fmj, especially if ya go to 5 shots.

 

[Orr89rocz]

My 308 shoots the 168 vld hunters well so far. .030 off the lands, and only 2800 fps. I probably could try for a higher node, as i have 165 tipped gamekings goin almost 2950 with a grain more powder. 26” barrel

 

[barefooter56]

Hello everyone. I need some help with my first precition 308 rounds.
I'm new to the forum as well as reloading, so any help will be much appreciated.

Although this are my first rounds, I've always been interested in this topic and I've been reading a lot lately, but there's still a lot to learn.
I'm going to be reloading for my Tikka Roughtech in 308, with a 22" Barrel, with some Federal fireformed brass, Berger 168 Hybrid Target bullets, Vihtavouri N550 and CCI Large Rifle Primers n200. I've to get things clear here, I'm not in the best country when it comes to reloading so there is no much room to try other components, what you see here is what I'm stuck with and my goal is to get as much precition as I can with what I have. Being able to shoot somewhat constantly at 1000yds is my primary objective.

1- The CBTO lenght to the lands came out at 2.280" when measured with the Hornady OAL gauge using these same pills, so here comes the first question: with how much jump should I start with? Has anyone had previous experience with this bullet regarding seating depth?
I was thinking that .020 or .030 off the lands would be a good base line in order to find the optimum charge weight, and go from there. If later on I feel like my groups may improove I always have the possibility to play with the lenght slightly.
I also attach a few pictures of the bullet loaded into the case at max CBTO lenght (touching the lands) because I'm worried about not having enought meat to preperly grab the bullet in place (keep in mind I'm considering seat it about .020-30" or so further in). What do you think?
Note: I'm not worried about mag lenght since I can always find a 30-06 mag and drop a long action bolt stop or even a 6.5CM mag wich wouldn't require a bolt stop swap.

2- Regarding charge weight, I think I'm going to start with a ladder test (maybe 15 rounds with 0.2gr increments starting from 43.0 up to 46.0?)
I've no access to reloading books at leat for now so if someone is kind enough to share loading data from something like Berger Reloading Manual or any other source that would be great, since the only info I've been able to get online about this powder and bullet was Vihtavouri's web page, and I'd like to see other comparatives.

Lastly, my plan is to have an all year round load wich I understand is not the easiest thing to do with this powder considering how temp. sensitive it is. Temperatures here may vary from 5°C (40F) up to 35°C (95F) so maybe doing my tests with middle ground temperatures is the best idea, trying not to use the last nodes right before I see over pressure signs.

I'll keep you updated when I try my loads and we go from there Thanks in advance

Please give us a call at 660-460-2802 or email us at: Support @capstonepg.com and we can help you!

 

[klvee]

Thanks for all your inputs. As I said, I'm stuck with what I've got at least for now. Although I wish I could get access to the 200.20x that's not the case and the 185 Jug are out of stock and I don't know when or even if they are going to be back in stock.

In regards to powder, it's either Vit 550 or H335 wich I would't even consider an option given how fast that is for this weight class.

My idea of going -0.020 or -0.030 off the lands is to increase the internal volume allowing me to use a bit more powder (if tests allow me to) and potentially not running into pressure issues as fast. OTOH if I load to 2.800" COAL I would be getting about 0.180 thou of jump!

What do you think about the bearing surface with the bullet/case? Will it be enough to get a firm grip? (keep in mind pics above where taken with the bullets seated touching the lands, so it will be 20 or 30 thous further in)

I hope to be reloading my firsts rounds soon and I'll let you know the results

 

[Martin52]

I'm loading the 168H's at a COAL of 2.95 and they are fine with ~ 0.002 neck tension.
If you're jumping .180 at 2.800 COAL then 2.95 should give you ~ 0.030 jump.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Thanks for all your inputs. As I said, I'm stuck with what I've got at least for now. Although I wish I could get access to the 200.20x that's not the case and the 185 Jug are out of stock and I don't know when or even if they are going to be back in stock.

In regards to powder, it's either Vit 550 or H335 wich I would't even consider an option given how fast that is for this weight class.

My idea of going -0.020 or -0.030 off the lands is to increase the internal volume allowing me to use a bit more powder (if tests allow me to) and potentially not running into pressure issues as fast. OTOH if I load to 2.800" COAL I would be getting about 0.180 thou of jump!

What do you think about the bearing surface with the bullet/case? Will it be enough to get a firm grip? (keep in mind pics above where taken with the bullets seated touching the lands, so it will be 20 or 30 thous further in)

I hope to be reloading my firsts rounds soon and I'll let you know the results

It's hard to tell with certainty from the pictures, but it looks like with the 168 Hybrid at "touching" there is approximately 1/3 neck length worth of bullet bearing surface in the neck. Does that seem about right to you? I wouldn't be shocked if the 168s tuned in somewhere between .010" and .020" off the lands; in my hands, the 168s tuned in at .015" off the lands for multiple Lot#s of bullets (2.917" COL). If they tune in for you seated farther from the lands, so much the better as it would leave you more shank seated in the neck. As it is, if you can have ~.125" bearing surface in the neck, or slightly under half a caliber, it should probably work just fine.

Nonetheless, don't overlook potential seating depth optima somewhat closer to the lands (i.e. from .010" to .020" off). It is not clear to me whether there is any well-established mimimum for the necessary amount of bearing surface that needs to be seated in the neck. I've always tried to keep a minimum of half a caliber, but you may be forced to run less than than if the bullet tunes in closer to the lands than .030" off. I've also heard of people successfully running much less than half a caliber of bullet shank seated in the case neck, so it probably isn't written in stone. I'm thinking the seating depth optimum for the bullet should ultimately dictate how far down in the neck it will end up [within reason], not so much a concern over the amount of force by which it will be gripped by the case neck. If you're really concerned over a perceived lack of bullet grip, you can always increase the neck tension/interference fit. But where the bullet wants to be seated to shoot optimally may not leave much of a choice.