.303 Brit. - best dies for??

[Dux-R-Us]

Dear friends in ballistics,

I am ready to handload for my Lee-Enfield No. 4 MkI. What are the best dies to load .303 Brit for this rifle? I know about collet dies and want to resize this way because of the headspace issue in this weapon.

Thanks for your sage advice. Have a Happy Christmas.

Kevin

 

[1000yardstare]

Reloaded for a .303 Smelly back in the 1960s as a University student. RCBS Jr. press and dies. CIL brass, primers and 180 gr bullets.

Load was 38.0 gr IMR 4895. Would guess it was around 2100 fps.

Main problem I remember is eventual head separations because of the springy rear locking SMLE bolt and oversize chamber.

Great battle rifle and plenty adequate for deer but not a reloader`s dream.

 

[RonAKA]

Seems to me you want to avoid pushing the shoulder back. So a simple neck only die would work. The Lee Collet die should work well too. Another option is to use a full length die and only partially size the neck -- two thirds or so. Then when it gets hard to close the bolt, then FL size just enough to bump the shoulder back 1-2 thou. Don't size until the shell holder contacts the die. Here is an article which may be of interest.

http://www.303british.com/id28.html

 

[CZ93X62]

I've gone both routes Ron speaks of with my brass in the 1918 BSA No. 1 Mk III I am playing around with. Brass life is MUCH EXTENDED using either sizing method.

 

[bigedp51]

The problem reloading for the British .303 is simple, you have a British cartridge and chamber that were designed in the early 1890s. And then you have the American SAAMI that came into being in 1926 that sets the standards here in the U.S.

The problem is the British military standards are different than American SAAMI standards for chambers. Below is a Wilson case gauge for the British .303, the .303 case is sticking above the Wilson case gauge because the British lengthened the chamber during WWI to make room for the mud of Flanders.

Another problem is our American commercial cartridge cases are not made to British Military standards, these cases are thinner, smaller and lighter and do not hold up well if not fireformed properly.

The Enfield rifle can have as much as .020 head gap clearance at the maximum military headspace of .074. This leads to excessive case stretching on the first firing and leads to case head seperations.

A simple trick to fireforming .303 cases is to slip a rubber o-ring around the case, and the rubber o-ring holds the case against the bolt face. The rubber o-ring also compresses and centers the rear of the case in the chamber promoting better case alignment in the chamber.

Think of this as parking a smart car cartridge in a blip size hangar chamber and trying to keep things centered.

Below the rubber o-ring is holding the cartridge against the bolt face with zero head gap clearance and prevents case from stretching in the web area when fired.

After fireforming the .303 case will headspace on the shoulder and neck sizing the case will extend case life a great deal.

The next secret is to buy Priv Partizan .303 cases, they have a larger base diameter, thicker rims, and case walls .010 thicker than any American made case. (think of these cases as Serbian Lake City match grade cases)

Below Prvi Partizan and Greek HXP cases fired in the same Enfield rifle.

Next secret, don't buy Winchester cases if you plan to reload and enjoy it. The Winchester cases below lasted for three reloadings and you can see why I didn't reload them a fourth time.

Did I tell you Remington and Winchester just don't know where to put the shoulder of the .303 cartridge case.

Below, Enfield manuals I donated to the website below.

1991 No.4 (All Marks) .303 Rifle Manuals (Complete Set)

http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=335-1991-No.4-%28All-Marks%29-.303-Rifle-Manuals-%28Complete-Set%29

REME Precis No. SA/Rifles/3 (Zeroing of No.1, No.3, No.4, No.5 Rifles)

http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=331-REME-Precis-No.-SA-Rifles-3-%28Zeroing-of-No.1-No.3-No.4-No.5-Rifles%29

 

[RonAKA]

I think the question was "what are the best dies to load" with.

 

[bigedp51]

I think the question was "what are the best dies to load" with.

And what I was trying to get across is not one American made SAAMI full length resizing die is made to fit the British Enfield military chamber or a cartridge fired in the military chamber.

The best die would be the Lee Collet neck sizing die and a Redding case forming die to use to bump the shoulder back when needed. Or have custom dies made that actually fit the Enfield chamber and fired cases.

The Enfield rifle gets a bad rap for having a weak action with rear locking lugs that causes short reloading life for its cases. I and severial other Enfield collectors have gotten over 30 reloads from .303 cases when they are properly fireformed and do not stretch in the web area. I don't remember any American complaining about the 30-40 Krag or the Remington 788 having a weak springy action.

What is important to understand is if you use a full length resizing die you will be pushing the shoulder back approximately .030 of an inch each time you resize the case "unless" you adjust the die accordingly.

The chambers on Enfield rifles were enlarged to prevent jamming from dirt and mud in the trenches of WWI. This dirt and mud caused the doom of the Canadian made Ross .303 rifle and are reloading dies do not reflect this British modification to the Enfield rifle.

The military Enfield chamber is approximately .030 longer at the shoulder than allowed for by the SAAMI. Also the average rim thickness for American made .303 cases is .058 and minimum headspace is .064 and maximum is .074. This means you can have between .006 and .016 head gap clearance.

Of note is the fact that the European CIP the equivalent of the American SAAMI states that the .303 British has "Problematic Headspace" read below. (in simple terms civilian comertial cartridge cases were not designed for British military Enfield rifle chambers)

Firearm cartridges with otherwise problematic headspace.

Depth of rim recess.
.303 British

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_L_problem

RonAKA, come on over and we can talk Enfield rifles over the worlds best beer. ;D

 

[2506]

Get you a set of Lee Deluxe 3 die set that has the collet neck sizer die and the FL sizing die. You will need the FL die to bump the shoulder back a touch some time down the road.

 

[1000yardstare]

BigEd...............I have to say your posts are among the best I have seen in this forum. Is the beer a secret case lube for resizing?

I became interested in Palma type shooting in the 1960`s. Canadians, Brits and Aussies were practising all types of voodoo on the .303 SMLE to post winning scores at 1000 yds with post front sights and Parker-Hale rear aperture sights. Unlike the U.S. NRA, reloads could not be used. Ammo was supplied by the Canadian Army, whatever the battle load was at that time. So reloading the .303 Brit was never developed to the point that is taken for granted in the 21st Century with the .308 Win and various F Class cartridges.

When the 7.62 NATO was adopted by the Canadian Army, the Palma shooters rebarreled the SMLE to .308 to continue using the Army`s battle load. Still no reloads permitted. Problem was the Canadian 7.62 NATO had undersized bullets to forestall fouling in machine gun barrels which required custom Palma barrels with a .306 groove.

Like many others I bought a cheap war surplus SMLE as my first centerfire rifle. Surplus ball ammo was available, 20 rounds for $2. Graduated to commercial soft point hunting ammo and eventually to reloading. Haven`t shot .303 Brit for quite some time but it holds a lot of memories.

 

[bigedp51]

1000yardstare

A little secret, when I had two sons in collage at the same time a school loan did not go through. I sold off almost all my rifles and hand guns to make up for the cash shortfall. A few years later my wife saw me looking at a No.4 Enfield just before Christmas and she decided to buy it as a surprise Chriftmas gift to make up for all the missing rifles I once had. The problem is her gift turned into an obsession called Enfielditis. :

I had a problem with her gift, I'm an American and I didn't know ANYTHING about this British and Commonwealth rifle. So I started looking for military manuals until I located a British weapons collector in the U.K. who also collected military manuals. Today I have 12 DVDs full of manuals from the British MOD Pattern Room Library.

I even have Enfield manuals in Dutch. ;D

And a few in English.

 

[Dux-R-Us]

Great info guys. Really very educational. More than I asked for but very welcomed.

Sounds like Lee Collet dies are good to use.

What size O rings does one use when fire forming and can you suggest a source?

Happy Christmas;

Kevin

 

[RonAKA]

Get you a set of Lee Deluxe 3 die set that has the collet neck sizer die and the FL sizing die. You will need the FL die to bump the shoulder back a touch some time down the road.

Bingo! A cut to the chase correct answer!

 

[CZ93X62]

Big Ed--

MANY THANKS for the detailed and expansive response to this question. I like the O-ring application for fire-forming new brass, and await your response to the O-ring size question asked above. I imagine it depends to some degree on a given rifle's rim clearances, but if you have a recommendation, I'm all ears.

 

[bigedp51]

Big Ed--

MANY THANKS for the detailed and expansive response to this question. I like the O-ring application for fire-forming new brass, and await your response to the O-ring size question asked above. I imagine it depends to some degree on a given rifle's rim clearances, but if you have a recommendation, I'm all ears.

You are correct, headspace and rim thickness will govern o-ring size. The problem is plumbing o-rings are all 1/16 in diameter so I stretch smaller o-rings over the case. I wish I still worked on aircraft because you could get smaller diameter o-rings. I believe a number 7 o-ring would be a starting point.

Please note that the larger bolt heads are getting harder to find and are getting very expensive. A rubber o-ring cost very little and as long as your Enfield doesn't exceed war time emergency headspace of .084 the rubber o-ring works wonders for extending case life.

I use reduced loads shooting .312 pistol bullets to fireform my .303 cases.

 

[CZ93X62]

Gotcha. My usual bit involves cast bullets seated to make fairly firm leade contact for fire-forming AND general usage. I shoot relatively few jacketed bullets these days. The first fire-form being done with the O-ring in place seems like a more positive indexing than reliance upon building pressure in a slightly over-length assembly to accomplish the form.

Some combination of the fire forming and gentler pressures (190 grain cast bullets @ 1700 FPS) has REALLY extended case life for me. I get 8-10 firings before a need to set back the shoulder occurs, and after an initial trim after fire-forming the cases don't grow much.

My next cases will be PP, for certain.