300 blackout questions

[Sniper338]

Several questions here...

1. I have a 300 blk pistol barrel 1-8 twist. I have tried alot with it, but nothing ive done shoots very well. What bullets do I need to be loading for this? Its not good for much, I know. Maybe a home defense situation if its grabbed before my 12ga buckshot.

2. I'm wanting to get a real 300 blk barrel for another upper. It will be 16 inch or 18 inch.. whats better? What bullets/twist rate come highly recommended for hunting? I was thinking about 110 flat base hornady vmax, or something in this realm?

I dont really know how lethal subsonic is. Im not sure subsonic will dirt nap hogs and deer... if so im open to setting it up for this, im sure twist rate for heaviest would change the barrel I need. I know there some bullets made now days for subsonic expansion.. if yall know more about this please lay it out, im open to it if its lethal and very accurate.

3. Whats the go to powders for what im needing here for both of these two barrels?


Looking at ordering an x-caliber barrel for the 16-18 inch barrel..


Thanks for yalls help as this caliber falls outside my research/knowledge base as to what all the gurus have figured out by now.

 

[WV Hitman]

I've had a .300 Whisper, the precursor (and exactly the same as the Blackout) for over 40 years.
Lethal???? Oh, yeah. I've taken over 120 deer, several hundred groundhogs, 4 turkeys, a dozen or so coyotes all 100% subsonic.
Best deer shots-270 yds. on a doe, 240 yds. on a really nice 8 pt. buck in WV in a driving wind/rain storm. The doe ran 50 yds. with a not so good bullet. The buck was DRT!!! with a better bullet.
I'm very good friend with the Whisper inventor, JD Jones of SSK industries.
The Whisper was initially used with Sierra 240 gr. Match HPBT bullets. They killed by tumbling & deer ran a ways with them (220 or 200 gr. bullets ) didn't work- not long enough to tumble well.
JD knew this and appointed me as hit bullet tester.
I found the Sierra 220 gr. Round nose Game King was FANTASTIC. That's what killed the buck. The bullet hit exactly where I aimed in that storm.
Then JD hooked me up with Lehigh Defense. They wanted bullets tested to see how they did. I killed deer with 5 different bullets, took pics, and sent them to Lehigh. # 1 thru 4 were not good-poor damage, deer ran. #5 was a WINNER-186 gr. Controlled Chaos- a all copper bullet with 4 pedals on the nose, PLUS a .17 cal. bullet inserted in the nose inside the pedals. It performed just like the 220 Sierra-DRT!!! It shot a little flatter.
SCOPE for subsonic rounds: Sub bullets fly like a thrown rock-a big arc. A MilDot scope is MANDATORY. Anybody that says no doesn't know much.
Powder: I've only used WW 296 all these 40 years. Performs great. Get good accuracy.
NEW SUB Bullets: I've never tried any. They may work. I don't care. My 2 bullets perform to perfection. Both either expand or fragment. I'm happy. See no need to change. Besides the Lehigh bullet is so good a "certain govt. agency" bought 200,000 of them at $7 a piece.
If you want any other info feel free to PM me . Happy to help.

 

[kelbro]

300BK with 220gr SMKs subsonic is very lethal on wild hogs. Never tried it on deer but I wouldn't hesitate if the opportunity presented itself. I'm quite certain that it would take out both front shoulders. Might not try a lung shot with the SMKs but the Barnes 110g TAC TX should work well.

 

[gary0529]

Like WVHitman stated the 300 Whisper (BLK) WILL cleanly take deer with the proper subsonic round. I had a Whisper built (16 inch - 8twist) over 20 years ago and since I didn't have a mentor for reloading that round I spent a good deal of time discovering exactly what WV states - the Lehigh bullets flat out work - I also went to a couple of other brands of heavy, skived bullets that did work on deer but always seem to go back to Lehigh
I have taken deer and beaver (they invaded my pond and the state agent said either leave them alone or kill them but you cannot trap and move) and I needed a suppressed and effective and accurate load for that job)
I also mostly have used W296 but there are at least 5 or 6 others that do well. So to respond to the OP YES the 300 BLK will work for what you are looking to do Find the right loading and have fun.

Gary

 

[spencerhenry]

My experience is quite different. I put together a 300 BLK specifically for shooting coyotes off of bait. I would often have 2 or 3 coyotes on the bait and figured that if I was shooting subsonic suppressed that I could get more than one shot before they others ran off. That NEVER worked, one shot and the coyotes ran off just like shooting supersonic unsupressed 223.

I used it one season, shot several coyotes with 220gr sierra matchkings. Lost every single one of them, followed blood trails in the snow for a great distance, once over a mile, and never found them. I was putting the bullets in the chest, probably killed them eventually. I assumed that I needed an expanding bullet to make reliable kills, but at $1 per projectile I was not interested. There are far better and cheaper ways to kill coyotes.

Before I got my 300, I thought I read many threads about how accurate the round was. I struggled to find good consistent accuracy out of the round. I eventually was able to get 1 moa at 100 yards, but it took far more effort than any other round I have ever reloaded for. The upper I had was done by D-Tech using a shilen barrel, if it had been a cheapo barrel I would just have assumed it was a crappy barrel. I was using brass made from LC, I used 296, sierra 220 matchkings, seated to fit in a magazine, until I started sorting and weighing brass the accuracy was not good enough for coyotes at anything past about 75 yards. While I was struggling with finding an accurate load, I did some internet searches to find what other people were doing, I found photos of lots of mediocre accuracy and stories similar to mine. Struck me as it was not an inherently accurate round with the big sub sonic bullets.

The drop on a 220gr bullet is so steep that you need drop charts with 10 yard intervals, it makes a low powered 45-70 load seem flat shooting. The drop is almost like shooting a bow, but with a bow my shots are under 50 yards.

With 125gr Speer TNT supersonic, it killed coyotes very well. But there again, why not just use a 223 or 22-250?

 

[WV Hitman]

Sierra 220 gr. Match Kings simply don't work- too short. I shot several deer with them that ran forever. Too short to tumble. The 240/250 Match Kings do tumble & kill sort of OK, but nothing like the Sierra 220 RNs. Again, this is not based on a few deer kills, but over 100. The 220s were not good on any small animals. The 240s not much better.
The 220 RNs dropped turkeys, groundhogs, coyotes. They simply did not move.
Yes, these bullets have a big arc of trajectory. That's why a MilDot scope is mandatory. I sight the 220 RN with the top mildot at 25 yds. Each dot below it is another 25 yds. Crosshair dead on at 150. Each dot below another 25 yds. It just doesn't get any easier than that.
This has worked to perfection for over 40 years. With my suppressor my Whisper sounds like a BB gun, but kills like a supersonic round.

 

[dellet]

Several questions here...

1. I have a 300 blk pistol barrel 1-8 twist. I have tried alot with it, but nothing ive done shoots very well. What bullets do I need to be loading for this? Its not good for much, I know. Maybe a home defense situation if its grabbed before my 12ga buckshot.

2. I'm wanting to get a real 300 blk barrel for another upper. It will be 16 inch or 18 inch.. whats better? What bullets/twist rate come highly recommended for hunting? I was thinking about 110 flat base hornady vmax, or something in this realm?

I dont really know how lethal subsonic is. Im not sure subsonic will dirt nap hogs and deer... if so im open to setting it up for this, im sure twist rate for heaviest would change the barrel I need. I know there some bullets made now days for subsonic expansion.. if yall know more about this please lay it out, im open to it if its lethal and very accurate.

3. Whats the go to powders for what im needing here for both of these two barrels?


Looking at ordering an x-caliber barrel for the 16-18 inch barrel..


Thanks for yalls help as this caliber falls outside my research/knowledge base as to what all the gurus have figured out by now.

Lots to think about here and tough to answer with the information given.

Let’s cut right to the bottom line. The 300 Blackout was more or less designed as a 2 MOA system. It was pitched to the military and the accuracy requirements were more or less 2 MOA out to 450 yards,had to work in an AR with only a barrel change, and pass the torture tests for reliability. It had to operate at 40 below and full of ice, as well as 130 full of sand. Function over accuracy was more important. The original bullets were a 240 SMK and a 115 grain flat base. With a velocity spread of about 1400 fps. It was designed to take humans out of battle, basically any hit will do. No one cares about “ethical or humane” kills. All that is required is to change someone’s mind about shooting back.

Thats not to say that it can’t hold Sub MOA groups, sub or super. But the farther past 100 yards with subs, the more difficult it becomes.

The big difference between 300 BLk and 300 Whisper is twist rate, you’re more likely to find a 1/10 in a Whisper and 1/7 in BLK. This makes a huge difference in bullet performance at sub sonic velocities. The slower twist is more likely to tumble. A 240 SMK in a 1/10 has a good chance of tumbling on impact, in a 1/7 it will pencil right through like an ice pick more often then not unless it hits heavy bone. Honestly any SMK shot sub sonic is a whole lot more lethal loaded backwards with the big flat base as a point, than forwards. I’m not the one who loaded them this way before specialty bullets arrived on seen.

As far as trajectory for subs, to give you an idea that is relatable, a scope with hash marks for a 22 LR matches up very nicely to a 220 SMK at 1050 fps. It’s a common one to use with subsonic shooters.

The biggest lie in marketing of the 300 BLK was not immediately squashing the “any 308 bullet will work in the cartridge” internet chatter. It’s simply not true. It will exit the barrel, it may not hit the scoring rings. The next biggest misconception is that a suppressed AR will be Hollywood quiet. If you really want quiet, get a bolt action.

Decide your primary use, and put together a rifle that works well for that purpose. No reason to have a 24” barrel on a dedicated sub sonic shooter, but if you want to load 150’s pushing 2400 fps you might consider one.

Keep in mind that you want bullets that tolerate a jump, the VMax you mentioned, works very well at blackout velocities and can be a sub MOA bullet. Even with a .250” jump.

I have used barrels from 6”-24”, twists from 5-15. They all have a place, they all can be sub MOA to 300 yards pretty easily with supers, 1 1/2 MOA with subs. Tightening that up takes some work. First step is defining expectations.

Might start with finding out why your current set up isn’t working and avoid the same mistake.

 

[Dufas]

I use 110 vmax in my 1:10 AR BO. Yote @150 with IR scope. One running shot and DRT. It shoots just as well in the 10" 1:8 pistol for closer shots. I can shoot heavy cast bullets too but nothing subsonic.
My barrel is McGowan 18" 1:10 SS and shoots great. Gotten rabbits and dillos @ 100 with the 640 IR scope on it. My pistol is a Kak 10" 1:8, standard jacketed (vmax. sst. ftx) or 145gr (! 2200 fps) to 180gr cast & Powder coated work just as well. I forget why I didn't go with X-caliber, could have been twist.

 

[Sniper338]

Lots to think about here and tough to answer with the information given.

Let’s cut right to the bottom line. The 300 Blackout was more or less designed as a 2 MOA system. It was pitched to the military and the accuracy requirements were more or less 2 MOA out to 450 yards,had to work in an AR with only a barrel change, and pass the torture tests for reliability. It had to operate at 40 below and full of ice, as well as 130 full of sand. Function over accuracy was more important. The original bullets were a 240 SMK and a 115 grain flat base. With a velocity spread of about 1400 fps. It was designed to take humans out of battle, basically any hit will do. No one cares about “ethical or humane” kills. All that is required is to change someone’s mind about shooting back.

Thats not to say that it can’t hold Sub MOA groups, sub or super. But the farther past 100 yards with subs, the more difficult it becomes.

The big difference between 300 BLk and 300 Whisper is twist rate, you’re more likely to find a 1/10 in a Whisper and 1/7 in BLK. This makes a huge difference in bullet performance at sub sonic velocities. The slower twist is more likely to tumble. A 240 SMK in a 1/10 has a good chance of tumbling on impact, in a 1/7 it will pencil right through like an ice pick more often then not unless it hits heavy bone. Honestly any SMK shot sub sonic is a whole lot more lethal loaded backwards with the big flat base as a point, than forwards. I’m not the one who loaded them this way before specialty bullets arrived on seen.

As far as trajectory for subs, to give you an idea that is relatable, a scope with hash marks for a 22 LR matches up very nicely to a 220 SMK at 1050 fps. It’s a common one to use with subsonic shooters.

The biggest lie in marketing of the 300 BLK was not immediately squashing the “any 308 bullet will work in the cartridge” internet chatter. It’s simply not true. It will exit the barrel, it may not hit the scoring rings. The next biggest misconception is that a suppressed AR will be Hollywood quiet. If you really want quiet, get a bolt action.

Decide your primary use, and put together a rifle that works well for that purpose. No reason to have a 24” barrel on a dedicated sub sonic shooter, but if you want to load 150’s pushing 2400 fps you might consider one.

Keep in mind that you want bullets that tolerate a jump, the VMax you mentioned, works very well at blackout velocities and can be a sub MOA bullet. Even with a .250” jump.

I have used barrels from 6”-24”, twists from 5-15. They all have a place, they all can be sub MOA to 300 yards pretty easily with supers, 1 1/2 MOA with subs. Tightening that up takes some work. First step is defining expectations.

Might start with finding out why your current set up isn’t working and avoid the same mistake.

pm inbound. Sounds like i can figurenthis out pretty quick with you

 

[dellet]

pm inbound. Sounds like i can figurenthis out pretty quick with you

Maybe I’ll just add to the confusion.

Something I really want to emphasize, and someone you need to listen to is @WV Hitman. he’s using one of the most unlikely bullets on the market, 220 round nose. If you talk to most people he probably doesn’t understand what cross hairs are for. He’s using a cartridge that according to many internet sources should be banned and fueled by an unlikely powder for a sub. Yet he has a pretty impressive record that any one with a single cartridge or even many cartridges would take pride in.

He has a favorite bullet and knows how it performs after impact. His load probably has some tight numbers and he has it shooting small. That takes time. One of the biggest factors is he knows how to range with his scope for distance and which mark goes where. Most important is that he can put the bullet where it needs to go to be effective. The cartridge does not make the WV hitman successful, he makes the cartridge successful.

For every one person like him there are probably 100 others that grabbed a budget upper, slapped it onto an existing lower, bought cheap ammo off the shelf and had a combination that would not even cycle the next round. Then they cut spring coils and drilled a big hole where a calibrated gas port once was. Once it cycled they zeroed in at 50 yards and called a 2” group good enough. Once in the field they shot a moose (at 300 yards) in the left rear hoof expecting the brains to fall out the right ear. Next stop the local gun store that has WiFi so they can tell everyone there, and all there internet buddies what a crappy cartridge 300 BLK is and how unethical subsonic hunting is.

Glad to help if I can

 

[tommeboy]

Like mentioned above, most subsonic bullets are spinning too fast. They need to be unstable to work as designed. They have to tumble. Thats why the 240gr bullet. Or it needs to be a 125gr bullet max for supersonic to expand or fragment.

 

[mic2377]

I have been shooting a 300 BLK for ~10 years or so. For powders, the best choices are H110/Win 296, 300-MP, or Lil Gun. Accurate 1680 for max velocity with heavier bullets (150 gr+), or if you want maximum cycling reliability.

The superior choice for lethality is the 110 TAC-TX, 115 Sierra, or 125 SST. A 110 TACTX at 2400 fps is a pretty effective projectile.

For subsonics, they can kill too, but you have to treat it like archery hunting. Shot placement and distance need to be very carefully chosen. While some here have had good success this is much more demanding of the shooter. You must have very good ranging capability, as at distances >150 yards, even small errors in ranging will result in misses.

Loading accurate long-range subsonic ammo is its own pursuit. This is much more finicky than a cartridge like 308 Win in terms of accuracy and controlling ES/SD.

 

[WV Hitman]

Thanks,dellet. I've spent over 40 years of friendship with JD Jones, the inventor of the .300 Whisper. He visited & stayed with me many summers when I had crop damage deer permits. I've used all his subsonic rounds on deer from 6.5 cal. to .50 cal( that was developed for Delta Force). He taught me everything I know about subsonic rounds-what's good, what's bad, how they work, why the work.
I initially wanted to buy a .50 cal. subsonic, but he convinced me the .300 Whisper was the way to go. He encouraged me to test many bullets for it, plus hooking me up with Lehigh Defense and their new owner Wilson Combat.
This amount of information is rarely available to others. I think it would be greedy of me not to share it.
Yeah, I probably sound very opinionated, but it's based on 40 years of learning and performance.

 

[Iowa Fox]

Sierra 220 gr. Match Kings simply don't work- too short. I shot several deer with them that ran forever. Too short to tumble. The 240/250 Match Kings do tumble & kill sort of OK, but nothing like the Sierra 220 RNs. Again, this is not based on a few deer kills, but over 100. The 220s were not good on any small animals. The 240s not much better.
The 220 RNs dropped turkeys, groundhogs, coyotes. They simply did not move.
Yes, these bullets have a big arc of trajectory. That's why a MilDot scope is mandatory. I sight the 220 RN with the top mildot at 25 yds. Each dot below it is another 25 yds. Crosshair dead on at 150. Each dot below another 25 yds. It just doesn't get any easier than that.
This has worked to perfection for over 40 years. With my suppressor my Whisper sounds like a BB gun, but kills like a supersonic round.

Doc, What scope are you using to get those dots to work out so well?

 

[DHD]

Sniper338,
I cannot touch the experience that WVHitman or Dellet have with this caliber, but I can provide my experience with both AR and bolt action in 300BO (one AR and 2 bolt actions).

I dove in with no real budget in mind with my AR so naturally spent $$ on very good parts and assembled it as I do all of my AR's (shimmed Craddock machined 10" barrel, fitted tight upper/lower, Triggertech Adaptable, Geissele rail, very good 1-6 scope, etc). It was not inexpensive but I knew it would not be. Point I make here is I threw money at it knowing certain parts make a difference in accurate AR's (barrel, trigger, and scope). The only time it has been fired unsuppressed was to make sure subsonic loads were stable. Supersonic loads have only been suppressed.

Handloading for subs has been almost a graduate course in reloading. Testing, testing, testing. I have read Dellet's posts on subsonic 300BO across many forums. He seems to either like the 300BO or hate it because he would not put it down (I jest). I found that to get consistent accuracy at 100 yards (because that is the distance I test at), I have to have low sd's. I can just watch the chronograph and noted the velocity and will know if it will be a high or low shot. Factory subs need not apply, but that doesn't matter as I handload anyway.

He (Dellet) posted some years back about faster pistol powders, so after me playing with H110, H4227, AA9, CFEBlack, 1680 speed powders, I decided to try my favorite medium speed pistol powder (HS-6). It was counterintuitive to me at first, but I am hardheaded. For me though, the faster speed powder was the ticket. FWIW, I have best luck with the Hornady 190 grain SubX and 220 grain SMK for accuracy in both the AR and Ruger RAR.

The AR can be every bit as accurate as my little Ruger RAR, but it has a better barrel. It is not, however, as quiet as the bolt action for the known reasons.

While many may disagree, I only build AR's with accuracy and function as my goal. That means a good barrel first and then other known very good quality parts. A factory barrel (93.2% of the time a cheaper barrel) rarely meets the high quality benchmark. Heck, sometimes an expensive barrel falls short, but not too often. I personally feel a 10" (or shorter) good quality barrel can provide whatever accuracy a subsonic 300BO can do. Of course that adds to the legal loops, but my stuff is SBR'd.

Long story to say, buy a good quality barrel (more money unfortunately) for your AR, buy a good trigger, try a faster powder if you want accuracy for subs, and it will never be as quiet as a bolt action. Just my experiences.

 

[Richard Jones]

"A MilDot scope is MANDATORY. Anybody that says no doesn't know much."

That's funny. I assumed everything was factual in that post until I saw that. Perhaps you just meant a scope with some dots. Big difference, if so.

I load 300 Blackout for two guys in my area. Both of them use the Hornady 135 FTX & 1680 for deer, one of them also shoots hogs and a lot of DCAP work . These are not subsonic or suppressed. The guy that does the DCAP work tells me that the bullet/load is very effective on both. The other guy uses the same load, but no hogs for him, only deer & the occasional coyote and groundhog. Again, stellar results on deer.

I see mention of 'tumbling' above. Are you saying it was designed to do that or are you saying the bullet gets upset upon impact? The tumbling effect does the killing? Just trying to get clarification here on what you think.

My 300 Blackout sees only subsonic suppressed stuff and I don't use it for deer hunting.

 

[WV Hitman]

Iowa Fox, since the .300 Whisper doesn't have much recoil subsonic a bought a cheaper MilDot Tasco 4-16X scope. It's lasted for 40+ years!!! It's been good enough to do the 270 & 240 yd. shots hitting exactly where I aimed.
I sight the top dot on at 25 yds. & each dot below is another 25 yds. EXCEPT one doesn't work for 75 yds. I simply hold 75 yd. yd. shot half way between the 2nd dot (50 yd) and 3rd dot(100 yds). To do this right you have to experiment with load to see where they hit at each 25 yds. On my scope it's on 8X.
I set up a BO for a friend using another brand of scope. His is set up on 10X on his Ruger American .300 BO. He's getting perfect hits out to 250 yds. with the 220 Sierra RN.
You have to remember accuracy of any suppressed load doesn't matter if the performance is not there. I've not found any bullets other than the 220 RN & Lehigh 186 Controlled Fracturing bullets to beat them based on the autopsy of each deer I've killed. These 2 are very impressive on groundhogs, turkeys, & coyotes. JD Jones had reports of the 220 taking a large PA black bear years ago. I'm not sure I'd go that far.

 

[dellet]

@DHD, it’s certainly a love hate relationship with the cartridge, but what’s more frustrating is the people that shoot it.
Only thing worse is plenty of the people who write about it.

Hunting with a pistol, many loads are sub sonic and those that are super= good to go.

Hunting with 300 Blackout, sub or super=bad. Don’t even try it with chipmunks.

Hunting with a 15” pistol=acceptable, but adjust distance for velocity, pick your bullet and shot placement carefully.

Hunting with a 5” barreled 300 blackout=expect high powered rifle performance and range. Bitch about it online when you don’t get it. It’s a rifle, the bullets should explode after penetrating and turn the insides to mush.

300 Blackout should be banned because it can be chambered in a 223 and go kaboom.
Chamber a 308 based cartridge in a 30.06 based chamber and kaboom, be more careful next time.

300 blackout hunter “ this cartridge sucks, I’ve shot 15 deer and not recovered a single one. I’m using the most accurate match bullet I can find”. Label on bullet box “not suitable for hunting”.

300 Blackout shooter “my bullets won’t make it to the target, and I think I had a baffle strike. It’s only a 9” barrel, can’t be velocity. A 110 bullet has to be stable in a 1/5 twist.” 12/5X2400x60=345,600rpm. Instruction with barrel or owners manual of the rifle, “use monolithic bullets only for supersonic use.”

Subsonic shooter “my bullets open up in flight. I was working a load down like people suggest. I started around 1500 fps. These things are junk”. On the box, do not exceed 1250 fps.

Handgun hunter “ my 10” 357 magnum has more power than a300 blackout, 150 grains at 1500 fps has 750 pounds of energy at the muzzle and is plenty to kill 500 pound hogs”.
300 blackout with a 150 grain bullet 10” barrel 1850 fps has 750 pounds at 150 yards.

Yes, I pick on those that hate or love the cartridge when expectations are un real, or criticism unwarranted. It’s a utility cartridge, it can do a lot of things better than average, but it’s not really top tier in any one of them.

I know guys in Australia and New Zealand that routinely have one shot kills on Red dear and goats at 3-400 meters with subs. I would venture a guess and say thats well past the effective range of most people shooting supers with the cartridge.

Here’s my most simple way I’ve found to explain range, you can insert any 30 caliber cartridge you want, I use 308W. Pick any bullet and velocity you want for the 308. Load the same bullet in 300 Blackout. Take the muzzle velocity for the blackout and walk it down the range card until it matches the 308. It will be somewhere around 300 yards for bullets 150 grains or less. If the 308W is good for 500 yards the Blackout is good for 200. If the 308 is good for 1000, the Blackout is good for 700.

I love arguing facts and logic against internet and magazine hype.

 

[tommeboy]

I see mention of 'tumbling' above. Are you saying it was designed to do that or are you saying the bullet gets upset upon impact? The tumbling effect does the killing? Just trying to get clarification here on what you think.

You want the bullet to tumble upon impact. That is what is meant by being unstable. You want a bullet that is on the edge of spin stability so as it hits something it is instantly tumbling inside. This is for the MATCH type of bullets. The specific designed copper bullets will open up even with the faster twist.

I can't afford some of these bullets so I keep bullets that are unstable or shoot lighter weight bullets. The 125gr Speers work well. So do the Sierra 110 and 115gr bullets. Hornadys 110gr vmax is also very good.

 

[WV Hitman]

Tumbling is what's preferred in long Sierra Match bullets. The long ones (240,250) are unstable enough to do that. The exits holes on them are not round, but irregular. When I started testing these bullets in my Whisper 200 & 220 gr. Sierra Matches left pinpoint exits showing they did not tumble. Most deer I shot with them walked a ways making me believe I missed, but after 5 min. or so they dropped. Internal damage was minimal, but all these shots were double lung. The deer rarely reacted at the shot. Just kept on feeding.
The 220 Sierra RN that I've used for 35+ years is just unstable enough to tumble some & the RN expands just a little giving more internal damage. Rarely has a deer moved from this bullet on a double shoulder shot out to 240 yds (big WV 8 pt.).