30 Herrett headache

[Bolt Bender]

Hey guys. Yesterday I turned my attention to my long neglected T/C Contender. I spent several hours reforming new Winchester 30-30's. That went well, I got that down years ago. This time though I switched from my cast bullet loads to some Hornady 130 JSP's. I had three powder choices available in my stock, I chose IMR-3031 because it generates less pressure than the others. Load data was scarce. I used the data in the Lee manual, which lists 22.9 min., to 26.0c (compressed charge). I set my RCBS chargemaster to throw 24.0, and seated them at the specified minimum C.O.A.L. of 2.320". That set the bullet only about half way in the neck. I checked it in my chamber, and it was engraving the lands, hard. I ended up backing them out 0.070" to 2.250". I'm worried about the additional pressure this may generate. I don't have a lot of experience in that arena. The addition seating depth did not compress the load. I can hear the powder when I shake the cartridge. Now I see that the diagram above the data states, 'to fit chamber', where the C.O.A.L. should be. I don't like to assume anything when reloading. The Lee manual has always been a little ambiguous, especially where bullet weights and seating depths are concerned, i.e. a 200 grain bullet might be an FN or HP or even a SWC. Each would be seated at different depths with the same OAL.

So, am I opening Pandora's box? Should I have my barrels leade lengthened? It is a stout barrel, an MGM brand full bull, but the frame is the old Contender, not a G2. Breech face thrust is a concern.

A reply from experienced 30 Herrett loaders and others is valuable, thanks

 

['Freak]

They talking brass fit to the chamber so it’ll be headspaced on the shoulder instead of the rim. Back out the FL size die so brass would be too long then increment the die slowly back in not more than 1/8th and preferably 1/16th turn each tweak (1/8th turn = ~.009”) checking fit between each tweak by closing the action on the sized brass. Once there’s no resistance felt closing the action back out the die only enough to put a snap of resistance back into the closing of the action on brass that’s completely filling the chamber breach face to shoulder. As to C.O.A.L. and seating bullets, if going from a bit of jump to get to the rifling to jamming the bullet it’s gonna cause rite smart of an increase pressure and etc., all the same as with any other round.

 

[2506]

If you are off the lands and you still can hear the powder shaking in the case you are NOT going to be over pressure using 3031. 3031 is probably the slowest powder that will work with the 30 Herrett. IMR 4198 really works well with 125 - 135 gr bullets. The 125 Nosler ballistic tip is awesome for deer.

 

[bigedp51]

IMR-3031 would be a poor choice for a 10 inch barrel and may not generate enough pressure to fill out the shoulder of the case. My Speer #9 manual from 1974 lists 2400, 296, H110 and H4227 as the best powders.

I do not have a 30 Herret contender pistol but in the 1970s I helped a friend work up loads and we used 296 and H4227 and IMR-3031 was never in the manuals for the 30 Herret.

Another reason I say this is because I have a Winchester 30-30 Trapper model with a 16 inch barrel and still had unburned powder in the bore with 150 grain bullets using 3031.

If you still plan to use IMR-3031 then put a white sheet on the ground in front of the bench and what you find may change your mind. There was a reason why they shortened the 30 Herret case and used faster powders.

If anyone has Quickload data for the 30 Herret it would give you the percent of powder burned in a 10 inch barrel and the best choice in powders.

 

[drichi]

I would strongly recommend that you have a look at h4227 and a nosler 125 ballistic tip bullet in the 30 herrett. It works well in a 10 inch barrel.

 

[TheOtherZilla]

I had a TC Contender in 30 Herrett. Biggest PITA to load for I have had in my entire life. As Olefreak stated this round headspaces on the shoulder. This was difficult at best when I was doing it.. If you don't get it right the round refuses to fire because of the tension in the Contender parts.. Cost me a few nice deer. I got so frustrated that I sold the whole shebang along with a 35 Herrett barrel etc.. Bought a 35 Remington set up and that was that.

 

[Bolt Bender]

They talking brass fit to the chamber so it’ll be headspaced on the shoulder instead of the rim. Back out the FL size die so brass would be too long then increment the die slowly back in not more than 1/8th and preferably 1/16th turn each tweak (1/8th turn = ~.009”) checking fit between each tweak by closing the action on the sized brass. Once there’s no resistance felt closing the action back out the die only enough to put a snap of resistance back into the closing of the action on brass that’s completely filling the chamber breach face to shoulder. As to C.O.A.L. and seating bullets, if going from a bit of jump to get to the rifling to jamming the bullet it’s gonna cause rite smart of an increase pressure and etc., all the same as with any other round.

My brass is perfect. My problem is the C.O.A.L. listed in the reloading manual. It gives a loaded C.O.AL. of 2.320''. At that length. The bullets ogive is jammed into the rifling leade. I had to seat the bullet deeper in order to close the chamber, 0.070'' deeper to keep it off the lands. This raises the concern of generating too much pressure.

I have a Hornady 30-30 modified case for my Hornady chamber length gauge. I think I'm going to make that into a 30 Herrett so I can find the exact point of contact. Then I can figure out how to set it better.

 

[Bolt Bender]

IMR-3031 would be a poor choice for a 10 inch barrel and may not generate enough pressure to fill out the shoulder of the case. My Speer #9 manual from 1974 lists 2400, 296, H110 and H4227 as the best powders.

I do not have a 30 Herret contender pistol but in the 1970s I helped a friend work up loads and we used 296 and H4227 and IMR-3031 was never in the manuals for the 30 Herret.

Another reason I say this is because I have a Winchester 30-30 Trapper model with a 16 inch barrel and still had unburned powder in the bore with 150 grain bullets using 3031.

If you still plan to use IMR-3031 then put a white sheet on the ground in front of the bench and what you find may change your mind. There was a reason why they shortened the 30 Herret case and used faster powders.

If anyone has Quickload data for the 30 Herret it would give you the percent of powder burned in a 10 inch barrel and the best choice in powders.

My MGM barrel is 16 1/2'' long. I ordered it that long so I could use it legally as a carbine. With the T/C buttstock it has a legal length.

 

[Bolt Bender]

I had a TC Contender in 30 Herrett. Biggest PITA to load for I have had in my entire life. As Olefreak stated this round headspaces on the shoulder. This was difficult at best when I was doing it.. If you don't get it right the round refuses to fire because of the tension in the Contender parts.. Cost me a few nice deer. I got so frustrated that I sold the whole shebang along with a 35 Herrett barrel etc.. Bought a 35 Remington set up and that was that.

I've been using my own hardcast bullets in it for years with a Lee C312-185-2R mold sized to .310, very accurate, but weak load using the IMR Trail Boss formula, and almost no expansion.
My original dies (Pacific Durachrome) were miserable to work with, as you had to hunt for the sweet spot. Was way to easy to get it wrong and set the shoulder back too far. The new RCBS form and trim die solved that. Simply run it down to touch the shellholder, and they come out perfect. After trimming, (I use a mini chop saw to get close, then my trim pro to finish), next, full length size, and they then take a few snaps to shut the action. The bright spot on the shoulder is dead nuts in the middle.
It makes a light weight carbine and good brush gun for hunting in Michigan ecotones. Not much need for super long range rifle where I go.

 

[Bolt Bender]

I would strongly recommend that you have a look at h4227 and a nosler 125 ballistic tip bullet in the 30 herrett. It works well in a 10 inch barrel.

I have some IMR-4227 (Canadian not Australian). Also, I'm still not convinced about the whole interchangeability with H4227. Reluctant to use any of my last remaining pound of it in the Herrett.

 

[Bolt Bender]

If you are off the lands and you still can hear the powder shaking in the case you are NOT going to be over pressure using 3031. 3031 is probably the slowest powder that will work with the 30 Herrett. IMR 4198 really works well with 125 - 135 gr bullets. The 125 Nosler ballistic tip is awesome for deer.

That makes me feel a whole lot better. Component shortage right now has me using up what I have in the cabinet, 125-135's don't seem to be in stock anywhere. Big part of loading for this wildcat is lack of data. Most that I find, whether from Hogdon, Lee, Sierra, or LoadData.com seem to be copies of the same stuff.

 

[2506]

My Hodgdon manual list 26.0 as a compressed load with 3031 fired by a Fed 210 primer with 130 gr Speer HP at COL 2.320 and the pressure is only 36,300 CUP for 1875 fps from a 10" barrel. It list 22.5 grs IMR 4198 as 44,400 CUP and 2015 fps as highest velocity. It has been YEARS ago but I helped a buddy fool around with the 30 Herrett and we got best results with IMR 4198 and H4227 with 125 Sierra bullets. But that thing was a PITA. We both decided that in the REAL world it was not worth all the trouble to accurately gain maybe 50-60 fps over the standard 30-30 Win in a 10" barrel. The first Contender I owned was a 10" 30-30 Win and then after a few years I went away from it and later came back around and found the 30-30AI in a 14" barrel. Now talk about GREAT that things is AWESOME. 125 Ballistic Tip at 2670 fps is REALLY accurate and just SMOKES deer. ;D

 

[Bolt Bender]

My Hodgdon manual list 26.0 as a compressed load with 3031 fired by a Fed 210 primer with 130 gr Speer HP at COL 2.320 and the pressure is only 36,300 CUP for 1875 fps from a 10" barrel. It list 22.5 grs IMR 4198 as 44,400 CUP and 2015 fps as highest velocity. It has been YEARS ago but I helped a buddy fool around with the 30 Herrett and we got best results with IMR 4198 and H4227 with 125 Sierra bullets. But that thing was a PITA. We both decided that in the REAL world it was not worth all the trouble to accurately gain maybe 50-60 fps over the standard 30-30 Win in a 10" barrel. The first Contender I owned was a 10" 30-30 Win and then after a few years I went away from it and later came back around and found the 30-30AI in a 14" barrel. Now talk about GREAT that things is AWESOME. 125 Ballistic Tip at 2670 fps is REALLY accurate and just SMOKES deer. ;D

Yep, same data I used, but I had to seat much deeper than the 2.320". That's my concern with upping pressure.

 

[bigedp51]

You don't have a problem, reduce the load and work up again at your new seating depth and play it safe.

With Quickload and .223/5.56 cases, the max case capacity was 30.6 grains of H2O with Lake City cases and minimum case capacity was 28.8 grains of H2O using Israeli IMI cases . Using the same load of 25 grains of H335 in these two case capacities changed the chamber pressure 6,000 psi with 1.8 grains less internal capacity.

This is a no brainer, work up a new load at your new seating depth. No one here will be around to pick Contender parts out of your head if anything goes wrong so work up a new load.

 

[Vincent]

ALL the old printed data in Speer #9 and Sierra are WAY TOO HOT. For instance Speer lists 23.0 4227 as MAX with 110 bullet. Sierra goes all the way to 25.0.

Several years after these were published Dupont that then owned IMR did the first true pressure tested loads. Turns out the highest they could get with 4227 and stay within T/C pressure recommendation for these loads was 18.8 Gr 4227!! Same was true of all the others like 4198.

How do I know this is true? Back in the 1980s I stretched a Contender frame so bad it had to be replaced never exceeding 23.0 4227 with Speer 110 gr H.P. that I used for hunting jack rabbits in the Mojave Desert. Had a jack in my sights and got a "click" instead of a boom on a first shipment "Super 14" barrel.

T/C was great back then and they cast me another frame with the same serial number to save all the paperwork even though they could have easily told me TOO BAD you ruined your frame. The engraving on the second frame was not as pretty as the early frame I ruined but how could I argue with that kind of service?

I know this is an old thread but if I can save just one old frame from over pressure damage it is worth it. I have been shooting Contenders since 1977. Around 2003 I had to sell my old pistol and all the barrels including my favorite .256 Win Mag due to a life set back.

Two years ago a gunsmith friend of mine found a 195,XXX range frame with an early Super 14 .223 barrel. My ex brother in law just traded me his old .30 Herrett and a 10" octagon .218 Bee along with ammo I loaded for both back in 1980 or so along with 300 new or once fired .218 brass and 50 loaded 30 Herrett and about 300 formed cases all for one new 14" .223 barrel!!

Color me happy

 

[Tuxedo007]

They talking brass fit to the chamber so it’ll be headspaced on the shoulder instead of the rim. Back out the FL size die so brass would be too long then increment the die slowly back in not more than 1/8th and preferably 1/16th turn each tweak (1/8th turn = ~.009”) checking fit between each tweak by closing the action on the sized brass. Once there’s no resistance felt closing the action back out the die only enough to put a snap of resistance back into the closing of the action on brass that’s completely filling the chamber breach face to shoulder. As to C.O.A.L. and seating bullets, if going from a bit of jump to get to the rifling to jamming the bullet it’s gonna cause rite smart of an increase pressure and etc., all the same as with any other round.

My brass is perfect. My problem is the C.O.A.L. listed in the reloading manual. It gives a loaded C.O.AL. of 2.320''. At that length. The bullets ogive is jammed into the rifling leade. I had to seat the bullet deeper in order to close the chamber, 0.070'' deeper to keep it off the lands. This raises the concern of generating too much pressure.

I have a Hornady 30-30 modified case for my Hornady chamber length gauge. I think I'm going to make that into a 30 Herrett so I can find the exact point of contact. Then I can figure out how to set it better.

How can I say this....? It has been a good while since I've loaded for my T/C in .30 Herrett. However, I must advise that IF the listed C.O.A.L. gives an overall length which is too long for your T/C, you should probably seat the bullet deeper to remedy the problem. This was suggested in a post above.

Since you can still hear the powder shifting in the case, There is little to no possibility of having an over pressure load, given the proper powder charge for the bullet you are using.

If you still have doubts, consult other loading manuals, such as Hornady, Speer, Sierra, Lyman. The newer manuals may not all list the Herrett cartridges, but there are some that do.

The main problems I have had w/the Herrett cartridges is insuring that I get the neck resized & the shoulder bumped just enough for the action to close without setting the shoulder back!

 

[gemihur]

T/C had a lot of variables in their 30 Herrett chambers, throats were short in some long in others.
The twist of their barrels were usually 1:14 and sometimes 1:10.
Stabilization becomes an issue with heavy bullets
Check your barrel's chacteristics, establish it's parameters then load accordingly.
I have found the 30 Herrett to be as versatile as the 300 Blackout.
It's almost a rimmed version of it.
Lately, I shoot it more than any other in my contender lineup.

 

[Lone Hunter]

gemihur, I hope they figured it out by now. This thread is 4 years old.lol

 

[Pete 49]

If you are having trouble with any TC reload try this.
With your TC empty open then close the chamber, now put your finger on the trigger and apply pressure until there is a click. Now put your thumb on the hammer and with very little pressure there will be another click and the hammer will fall a tinny bit. Now that you know what is supposed to happen start by sizing your case until your TC closes without slamming it. Now try the trigger, hammer test, if it reacts the same as it did empty you are sized correctly but if the hammer will not drop with a slight pressure turn the die down 1/16 of a turn re size and test again until it reacts the same with a case as it did empty. At that point your case is properly sized. Now you can load your cases and set the bullet head space.
If you have rounds that did not fire you will see there is no mark on the primer and you can put them back in the TC and try the trigger, hammer test and the hammer will not drop because the fit is too tight.
I learned this from Mr. Herrett.
I hope this helps.

 

[Three44s]

That is a great tip Pete 49, thank you!

I broke my 30 Herret 10” out a few weeks ago from a long layover (about six years!). A fellow had formed up almost 400 cases but then grew weary of the cartridge without shooting it much then posted it on another forum for $35 shipped, go figure.

I got them but he had them so clean and sparkly and then had them all deprimed and mixed sized and fired but not resized all together! I sorted them by checking inside neck diameter. In the end Most of these cases ended up getting partial full length sized because he had some sort of intermediate neck size slipped in there that did not hold bullets right. I have no idea what or how he managed that.

Anyway, I am working with cast bullets lately and powder coated in particular. The first slug is the Lyman 311359 with a gas check. That one is getting pushed with H4198. That same slug without a check but still powdered coated I am trying with HS6 in a plinker loading.

I have plenty of longer barrels in other cartridges, 7mm TCU and 30-30 to mention just a couple but there is much to be said for 10” as well so that keeps bringing me back to my 30 Herret.

One thing that plagues me with these Contenders in short form is how do you get consistent bullet placement under varying firing situations?

I can do pretty well with a light recoiling round like my 22K Hornet in Super 14” but in a more robust cartridge like the 30 Herret in a 10” like mine I am not getting consistent results at all.

I shoot big bore revolvers as well so I understand recoil, vs grip vs. barrel dwell time but with a longer range gun like a Contender I like to rest it. I am getting perplexed on a BullX bag, I can not imagine the variables out in the field with ever changing conditions.

Three44s