30 BR-what are the downsides for using in F Class?

[SDDasher]

Last fall I shot an F Class 1K match next to a competitor in Blakely, Ga who was shooting a 30 BR. He shot a very respectable score winning the match in some very tricky wind. In fact I recall he cleaned the final relay during the strongest wind conditions. Thinking back on that match got me wondering why there aren't more being shot in F Class or perhaps there are just not where I compete. Anyone know the answer to why or why not?

 

[ShootDots]

It is my understanding that in 300 yard BenchRest they are very difficult to beat. They are superbly accurate. If a shooter is VERY adept at wind reading, he could utilize the accuracy level of that round and place his bullet exactly where he wanted. We F-Open shooters want HIGH B.C. bullets to go as fast as we can accurately send them. The reason for this is, we are in essence admitting that we can not read the wind very well and want to overcome our ineptitude with projectiles that can "defeat" the wind better than we can accurately read it. It is obvious that this fellow can read the wind with precision! My hat is off to him!

 

[swd]

It's the wrong cartridge for the job.
A 30BR shooting a 117 at 2950 drops 428" and drifts 141" in a 10mph wind at 1K.
A 284 Win shooting a 185 at 2950 drops 256" and drifts 57" in the same wind at 1K.
Are you sure he was shooting a 30BR??

 

[LHSmith]

It's the wrong cartridge for the job.
A 30BR shooting a 117 at 2950 drops 428" and drifts 141" in a 10mph wind at 1K.
A 284 Win shooting a 185 at 2950 drops 256" and drifts 57" in the same wind at 1K.
Are you sure he was shooting a 30BR??

+1

 

[JRS]

It's the wrong cartridge for the job.
A 30BR shooting a 117 at 2950 drops 428" and drifts 141" in a 10mph wind at 1K.
A 284 Win shooting a 185 at 2950 drops 256" and drifts 57" in the same wind at 1K.
Are you sure he was shooting a 30BR??

+2

 

[SDDasher]

I'm sure of what he told me. 😙 right back atcha! Could be as Ben says he was a much better wind driver than the three nubes above. 😉
Just because a cartridge doesn't have the ballistics of another doesn't make it the wrong cartridge for the job if the shooter has the skills to shoot it accurately. I could fill a book with accounts of calibers "the wrong cartridge for the job" based on the criteria given as proof of that ludicrous statement. Ask Brad Mitchell who won a State FTR match with a .223.

 

[AndyTaber]

I would think that just because a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while, you wouldn't necessarily want to poke both eyes out and go seeking acorns.

 

[swd]

You asked the question and got the answer. You don't have to like the answer but it doesn't make the answer "ludicrous" or untrue in any way.

 

[bobinpa]

It isn't that the 30-BR is a little behind in ballistic capability for Long Range, it does not even come close for 1000yds.
With ballistics double to triple worse then the normal cartridges being used.

Can't help but think your mistaken to what your buddy was shooting.
If it truly was a 30-BR at 1000yds, I want to see the results for that match please.
Donovan

+1 He might have said he was shooting a 30br, but I would have to think he wasn't being honest. I would like to see the equipment list for the match. If he was actually shooting a 30br to that level of greatness, he undoubtedly broke some records. First might be longest shot made with a 30 br..... :-\

 

[SDDasher]

It isn't that the 30-BR is a little behind in ballistic capability for Long Range, it does not even come close for 1000yds.
With ballistics double to triple worse then the normal cartridges being used.

Can't help but think your mistaken to what your buddy was shooting.
If it truly was a 30-BR at 1000yds, I want to see the results for that match please.
Donovan

It was a monthly 1000 yd F Class match not a bench rest match. As those of you that shoot F Class know an equipment list is not requested from competitors in all but Regional, State and National matches usually. I have no way of proving nor disproving what I was told by the competitor.
The match was actually shot in May of 2013 and scores are posted on the Aim website. I won't post the competitors name, but if you look at the scores he was the only winner.
It is not that I doubt responses that a 30BR might be inferior because of limitations of bullets or other components, it is ludicrous to me to hear someone make a statement that ballistics alone determines the worthiness of a caliber for F Class competition. There are too many examples of just the opposite to make that a "true" statement. It is highly subjective which caliber is superior based upon ballistics alone.
I did not know there are records for how far a bullet is shot......in F Class or any other highpower competition. I guess the presumption by the poster that made that statement is that it is impossible for a 30 caliber bullet weighing 118 grains going 3000+ fps to reach one thousand yards?
I must have been crazy to shoot an eighty grain Sierra out of an AR Service rifle at the long range Championship at Camp Perry back in 1992.
If someone can give a logical explanation vs a theoretical opinion I would like to hear it on why it is not being used for F Class competitions. 6000 rounds on barrel life is by far superior to anything I am aware of being used in F Class.

 

[dkhunt14]

I would also have to see this. A 30 cal 118 grain; BC would be low. It doesn't matter the velocity. It doesn't matter if F-Class or BR, a thousand yards is a 1000 yards. The BC of the 22 cal 80 grain would be a lot higher and is considered a long range bullet. Matt

 

[JRS]

With a BC of .300 or less and the 80 grain .224 with a BC of .445, give or take. Not hard to ascertain that outcome :

 

[Laurie]

It is not that I doubt responses that a 30BR might be inferior because of limitations of bullets or other components, it is ludicrous to me to hear someone make a statement that ballistics alone determines the worthiness of a caliber for F Class competition. There are too many examples of just the opposite to make that a "true" statement. It is highly subjective which caliber is superior based upon ballistics alone

Yes, but if the ballistics are so really bad, the round becomes so uncompetitive that it's not worth using at that distance. FWIW Berger's ballistic program says its 115gn .30 FB at 3,200 fps becomes transonic between 600 and 700 yards and subsonic between 800 and 900 yards under standard ballistic conditions. Most flat-base bullets lose stability and tumble under such conditions. Shooting a 7.62X39 Cz527 carbine with 123gn 0.310" FB FMJs at ~2,400 fps MV some years back, they shot OK to 500 and went to pieces at 600 going through the target sideways. 7.62X39mm is another cartridge that is shall we say rarely seen in 1,000 yard F matches.

I must have been crazy to shoot an eighty grain Sierra out of an AR Service rifle at the long range Championship at Camp Perry back in 1992.

I used a 223 Rem AR in the early days of F-Class with 80gn SMKs at what would be lower MVs than normally seen from gas guns. (We in the UK have manually operated straight-pull versions and the limiting factor on loads and pressures is their poor primary extraction - load too hot and you struggle to get the bolt open.) The 80gn SMK firstly has a higher BC than 115/118gn thirties; it is a very well mannered bullet in trans and subsonic flight. My shots were all subsonic in 1,000 yard matches and I had to keep asking for the target to be pulled. Finally even in the very dawn of F back around when the first FCWC was about to be held in Ottowa, Canada and when we shot still on 2-MOA Bull-5 targets alongside the Fullbore and TR types, the 223 with these ballistics was far from competitive at this distance. It was at 500/600 and I won a few short-range comps, but 900 and 1,000 were very different matters against cartridges like the 6.5X55mm, and even before most L-R 'Effers' picked up on the 6.5-284 never mind the sevens we use now.

 

[SDDasher]

Thank you Donovan and Laurie for what I consider a well stated practical explanation to my ill phrased question. Perhaps and it seems plausible I misunderstood the caliber the gentleman was shooting that fine day in May over two years ago. I recall seeing a small cartridge similar to my Dasher and remember it being described as a 30BR. As one gets older a mistake or two creeps in occasionally.
It does disturb me how quickly keyboard National Champions and National Record holders rise to belittle posters with genuine interest in learning more about this sport. To those I would say you do no service with snarky responses.

Wes Cummings

 

[bobinpa]

6brmrshtr, First, I apologize if I insulted you. I honestly feel the guy was pulling your leg. I own and shoot a 30br and since I do, I would never attempt to be competitive with it at 1000 yards. I know the capabilities of the cartridge and 500 - 600 yards is a stretch. A shooter would be foolish to expect to win at 1000 yards, but that's just my opinion. That bullet would have to drop over 30 feet at that range, so I don't know if you could even get a scope and base to give you enough adjustment for that. When I made the comment about it possibly being a record as the longest shot made with a 30br........ to me making a shot isn't just throwing lead out there. Making a shot is hitting your intended target. Although it was meant to be a little sarcastic, I still feel making a 1000 yard shot with a 30br is a great accomplishment, let alone winning a match in strong wind.

None of my comments were really directed at you as you weren't the shooter.
Again, my apologies for the sarcasm,
Bob

 

[swd]

Wes, I gave you good solid ballistics. There was nothing remotely "ludicrous" about it. My second reply was nothing more than not taking any undeserved crap. Just because I'm not Donovan Moran or Bryan doesn't mean I'm idiot. And that's how your coming across.

 

[lrgoodger]

Wes,

They say a picture is worth a thousand words, so perhaps this illustration will enlighten you as to why we find your statement so incredible. This is a plot of a 6mm 105 hybrid (pink curve) vs. a 118 grain 30BR bullet (blue curve) as calculated by a ballistics program. According to the program, which I have found to be very accurate, the 30BR bullet will slow down and fall out of the sky before it reaches 1000 yards due to its incredibly low ballistic coefficient.

Perhaps, as others have suggested, it was not actually a 30BR that was being discussed by your friend two years ago. It certainly appears that SOMETHING is amiss with the story. I have successfully shot my 30BR to 500 yards in perfectly still conditions, but over that distance the bullet falls so rapidly that one has to aim up in the air like lobbing artillery to get the bullet further downrange.

 

[Judd]

I had a 30br, without a doubt one of the most accurate guns I've ever owned....if the wind wasn't blowing. I built it for a 250y clay game that I play...if the wind blew at all (5 mph) it sucked. Those flat base 30 cal bullets are the equivalent of throwing a Campbell's soup can...a 5mph switch could blow that bullet from one side to the other 8" wide...which is tough when you're trying to hit a 2" clay.

Only way I see it being done is if someone build one on a little faster twist and shot a little heavier boattail bullet. Never seen it done but doesn't mean it can't be done.

For what it's worth...I sold all my 30br stuff just so I wouldn't shoot it in matches (yes, it was so accurate I wanted to try it but the wind always blows in TX and I sucked with it) and went to 6 improved stuff.

 

[DanSavage]

Perhaps this 30br has evolved like the 6br. A 30br chamber 10 twist barrel shooting Berger VLD 180'S?

I don't know just a thoughtLOL

 

[memilanuk]

Interesting topic... someone asked me about almost exactly this not very long ago. Maybe the same person - hard to tell with the screen name.

I have a .30 BR set up for NBRSA Varmint-For-Score. Very accurate for 100-200-300. I've done pretty well with it in the few matches I've attended - but by the end of the last one, with winds swirling and gusting from 5 to 30mph and switching all over the place, I was starting to wish for my match F/TR rig running 200 hybrids @ 2650 - and that was at 'only' 200yds.

Also, I took the same gun (running a custom 112 gn FB bullet @ ~3050 fps from a 24" 1-17" tw barrel, 13 lb gun) to a local 600yd practice. First problem was the stock - my BR stock is *way* too short for prone use, which allowed it to get a good running start and pop me in the face a couple times. Other than that... it held about X-ring elevation @ 600yds with thrown charges, unsorted cases, etc. It was all I could do to hold 8-ring windage. It was like shooting with a friggin' whiffle ball. NO b.c. to speak of. I'd call bull on someone winning a 1k match with that particular combination. Now... run the throat out to accommodate a Berger 155.5 BT and give it a 1-12" twist, and it might be a different story. Throat it longer and you could have a BR version of a .300 AAC Blackout, which could be kinda cool. Personally I think it'd still sucking hind teat to a modern F/TR rig, but at least it might make it interesting.