3 shot groups verus 5 shot groups

[Martin S]

I'Ve found that I can shoot a good 3 shot group but a 5 shot group will tell the tale. Mostly it's me the shooter....lol...You shoot 3 shot groups and you think, Wow! Those are tight! Then you shoot the next 2 and there goes the good group. I think a lot of it is a head game on my part. What do you think?
Martin S

 

[TheSnake]

I don't think 3 shots is enough to show me anything other than things came together 3 times in a row. On my hunting guns, 3 is enough before I hit the woods, but on the holepunchers, to me it's not. I am not a big time shooter so I shoot over a chrony to tell me that the loads were consistent and if they were, it was probably me, the wind, the bags, the hold, the bench, the ant walking along top of the bench, or or or...

 

[MarkS]

Martin S,

I shot 3 shot groups for everything. I think 5 shots are testing the gun and the shooter. you have the conditions to thinks of. If you are not shooting over wind flags, you dont know what you are shooting. When testing loads I shoot many 3 shot groups may 4 or 5 with the same load. I will ge down to 2 load combo and will shoot aggs to pick a load.

Mark Schronce

 

[Rock Knocker]

For me its all in my head. If i can take the time and not get kocky i can make those last two shots count.

I thought the same thing to begin with. My 3 shot group was great and i got kocky then the next two could double the group size and i would be bummed out, but its all me. If you can douplicate everything the bullets should go in the right spot.

 

[stapher1]

I believe 3 shots tests the load and/or gun, 5 shots tests you.

 

[bozo699]

I say fewy on the last two are me, anxiety does happen, but everytime or most of the time,..I think not, if that is the case shoot 7 shot groups to test your theory, five should be in a ragged hole and the last two out I personally think 5 shot groups separate the accurate shooters from the average shooters, both the man and the rifle but mostly the rifle. If you have enough bench skills to put three into one hole then you have the skills to put 20 into the same spot provided the rifle is capable and most are not! and most benches are not either. The rifle has to be built perfectly, the bench has to be solid, you have to be comfortable and the rifle has to ride the bags perfectly the same every shot. JMHO
Wayne.

 

[memilanuk]

Three shots is, in theory, not enough to say that a load is 'good', but rather enough to say its 'not bad'.

Reality is you have to draw the line somewhere, components are expensive, barrel life limited and range time may be as well.

I do three shot groups to get an idea of where I want to investigate further, then come back and re-visit with longer strings - five shot groups to confirm, then 10 shots or more to 'acid test'.

Yes, the longer strings test the shooter to a larger degree. Unless you are shooting with the gun clamped into a vise on a bench, the shooter *is* part of the system and mo' trigger time = better shooter

 

[JERRYHM]

I love three shot groups, in a 1000 yard BR match the first three were under 3/4 of an inch, number 4 made it a 3 inch group and the last shot made it a five inch group. It sure was not me, had to be the wind!(hehe).

 

[bozo699]

I love three shot groups, in a 1000 yard BR match the first three were under 3/4 of an inch, number 4 made it a 3 inch group and the last shot made it a five inch group. It sure was not me, had to be the wind!(hehe).

Absolutely!! ;D ;D

 

[BoydAllen]

It all depends on what you are using the groups to determine. With sporter weight barrels, many calibers heat them up enough so that deterioration in grouping will result when shooting more than three shots in a group. As long as you specify how many shots there are in a group, so that comparisons can be made "apples for apples", no one should complain.

I get a little tickled when I see some "testing" that is done. Fellows may be shooting an unbedded action, off of a bad rest, from a wobbly bench, with no way to know what the shot to shot differences in the wind are, using a scope that has parallax, with an unaltered factory trigger of who knows how many pounds pull weight, with a seating depth that then describe as about a sixteenth of an inch shorter than touching, but by God, they are trying five shots each by tenth grain intervals, of their powder charge. I guess that my point is that as long as they are happy and satisfied, who is to say that they are doing anything incorrectly. After all, they made it to the range, and are having fun.

Back in the day, when I knew a lot less, I think that I had as much or more fun.

BTW when doing initial testing of some new component for my sub .2 capable 6PPC, I use 2 shot groups, if the flags looked right, and there is paper between the bullet holes, more shots isn't going to make the group less ugly. After I have good 2 shot results, I progress to three, and then five shot groups, and may eventually shoot several of those, since benchrest group competition is about averages (aggregates, and grand aggregates) of five shot groups.

Call me cheap, but with such short competitive barrel life, and the cost of other components, it seems to me that there is good reason to try to be efficient when testing.

 

[bozo699]

Nice post Boyd, what I was trying to say but much more politically correct
Wayne.

 

[BBTC48]

Oh yeah...Boyd is correct. No shots #4 or #5 ever made that 3 shot group any smaller. And barrel heat on many barrels will quickly come into play with a longer string. Especially if you include a sighter or fouling shot.

 

[Killshot]

Many, many five-shot groups....... :'(

 

[rayjay]

, but by God, they are trying five shots each by tenth grain intervals, of their powder charge

On another site there was a guy touting a granite surface plate to be used as a base for sitting your powder scale on so you could get super accurate powder charges. I started to make a list of the things that I thought were important to 100/200 yard accuracy [ with a typical target rifle not a BR rig ] and being able to drop charges within .010 gr was not even on the rather long list. The list got too long so I just put that last sentence down as a response. Killed the thread .

 

[BoydAllen]

I am not sure that any of the current 1-200 yd, records were shot with weighed charges, including the most recent.

 

[Martin S]

I'm glad to see others have the same head game problems with five shot groups.

 

[spclark]

Depends.... Doing initial load testing, 3 will tell you a lot without wasting powder, bullets and barrel life. At least tell you what kind of elevation consistency you can expect, and whether you're nearing the top end of pressures.

As you narrow your search for nodes, 5 is better if you don't feel a pressing need to shoot 10 & really gain an understanding of what's happening down range.

 

[TRECustom]

I shoot 3 shot groups in the boomers mostly because of barrel heat (and barrel mirage), but I track the cold bore and 2nd shot from target to target. Sometimes I have 5 or 6 targets shot over a period of weeks or months. If the cold bore shots group less than 1 moa, I use that p.o.i. as zero. The 2nd shots (with good loads) will be within 1/2 moa of the cold bore shots. If they are not, I set my zero with a fouled bore and hunt that way.
I trust 5 shot groups a lot more than 3 shot groups, but in the big cartridges they're too hard on the rifle and too expensive, so I stopped shooting them. Tracking the cold bore and backup shots works very well and saves money and wear and tear on barrels and components. After consistent cold bore hits days, weeks, or months apart at different temperatures, you can finally check zero with just 1 shot. That really does save money and barrel wear. Builds confidence too when you can overlay a half dozen targets and see the hole, or edges of it, through all of them.

On .30-06 horsepower and down, I stayed with 5 shot groups, (and punt one pretty regularly) but when I shoot a keeper, I have confidence in that rifle and ammo too.
I do not believe that you can shoot a good 5 shot group by accident or luck.

Overall, it looks like we're pretty much on the same page on 3 shot vs. 5 shot groups.

Tom

 

[bozo699]

Tom,
For my hunting rigs I have done exactly the same as you and I agree with it
Wayne.

 

[Klong]

Most gun periodicals shoot 5, five shot groups.

For most of my hunting rifles I shoot 2 shot groups. I will normally shoot 5 to 10 two shot groups and aggregate the targets. That will give me an idea how the rifle performs on the first 2 shots out of the cold barrel, which to me are the most important for hunting. I try to do this in early morning or late evening low wind conditions. BTW I have shot some 1 shot targets the same way to confirm cold bore.

For target rifles I shoot 3 shot groups to eliminate most loads and then shoot 5 or 10 shot groups to confirm which load is best. When I am looking for a good load, I try to shoot in low wind conditions.