2x fired brass chambers but with difficult extraction and marks near shoulder

[XTR]

I was referring to Bench Rest shooters who typically shoot in the .1s in short range BR.

Now, my F-TR 308 will shoot vertical at 600 yards in the range of 3 inches or so. At 1000 yards I rarely see more than ½ moa of vertical.


Those are two of my targets. The E target is in a match in Canada that is at 700m. The pasted target was mine at 1000 yards at Camp Butner

 

[JFrank]

I was referring to Bench Rest shooters who typically shoot in the .1s in short range BR.

Now, my F-TR 308 will shoot vertical at 600 yards in the range of 3 inches or so. At 1000 yards I rarely see more than ½ moa of vertical.

View attachment 1041170 View attachment 1041171
Those are two of my targets. The E target is in a match in Canada that is at 700m. The pasted target was mine at 1000 yards at Camp Butner

Thank God!
I was about to give up.
Great shooting sir
Again much respect
SPJ

 

[XTR]

Thank God!
I was about to give up.
Great shooting sir
Again much respect
SPJ

Your rifle has a thin barrel, it will heat up and walk around on you if you try to shoot groups. I don't know for sure where it will get wonky, but probably about 5 to 7 shots and its going to be hot. It's not made for long strings.

It is a hunting rifle, you shoot one shot groups on animals, that is the shot that is important. If you can place the bullet in the vital zone at the ranges you choose to hunt then it's doing exactly what it's supposed to do.

 

[JFrank]

Your rifle has a thin barrel, it will heat up and walk around on you if you try to shoot groups. I don't know for sure where it will get wonky, but probably about 5 to 7 shots and its going to be hot. It's not made for long strings.

It is a hunting rifle, you shoot one shot groups on animals, that is the shot that is important. If you can place the bullet in the vital zone at the ranges you choose to hunt then it's doing exactly what it's supposed to do.

 

[JFrank]

As others have said, full length size with about .002" shoulder bump. I've literally gone 50 firings of hot loads in Lapua brass! The case head separation is a classic example of working the brass too much when sizing. You don't have to have a custom die to get a custom fit either. I often spec reamers to work with Redding type s full bushing dies. This method just makes more sense to me, than buying custom dies.

Proper die to chamber relationship is critical but you can do it with custom dies or with a custom chamber reamer. Once fireformed, there is no discernible difference as both methods can result in the same amount of brass movement when fired and sized. This is an area where we are our own worst enemy, in search of perfection in all areas. As long as the chamber isn't way too large for the virgin brass, which would result in loose primer pockets early, there is no down side. We have regressed in this area by spec'ing reamers too small, necessitating custom dies to get the brass to size down. I want my brass to come out of the die sized smaller than a fired case by about .0015" at the shoulder and .0005-.0006" at the web.
To get this, you want a reamer that is about .003" larger at both areas than the die. Spring back, brass thickness and hardness are different at the two areas, yielding different resultant sizing at the shoulder vs the web area.

This along with minimal shoulder push back and good brass, will result in very good brass life at even hotter than normal loads.

I definitely over worked that batch of brass, I was using cheap ass dies. And a novice reloader at the helm.
SPJ

 

[XTR]

Slightly more than a thin barreled hunting rifle.

Oops, sorry, confused you with the OP and the straight pull Blaser.

 

[dkhunt14]

View attachment 1041172

I have seen the 308 shoot many sub 2 inch groups at 600 yards. I even saw a sub 1inch group. These were shot at matches and not waiting for conditions to settle. The problem is, you need to load tune at the distance you are shooting. There is a difference netween a 300 yard, 600 yard and 1000 yard load if you are trying to shoot extremely small in BR. Most shortrange shooters change their load from 100 to 200 and from day to day. Then you need to have a good barrel, good bullets and know how to tune and shoot it. Matt

 

[ppaul]

SGK, for what it is worth here's my process. I only full length size.1rst firing, measure base to shoulder on 10 cases and set-up die to not move shoulder at all. 2nd firing, brass is usually a couple thousands longer, again measure 10 cases and use skip's die shims to raise die accordingly, as in don't push the shoulder back. 3rd firing, same procedure, this time it might only be .001. 4th firing, now we are getting somewhere. no increase in length or very little [calipers are only so good]. Now I can set die for .002 bump, or a little less. I feel confident that my brass is fully expanded and now other than watching for a change in work hardening, also a point to consider annealing. I'm good. Again just what I do but, it works for me!

Good luck and, enjoy the USA. Paul

 

[JFrank]

Hi. First post after introduction here. I'm very new to reloading but getting into it for my .308 and .223 rifles (later my 7mm Rem Mag). I'm encountering an issue with 2x fired (my rifle only) cases in my .308 and hoping I can get some advice. The rounds were neck sized only after the first firing (so now fire formed twice as it were). The brass is PPU and has been trimmed to length and chamfered/deburred, if that is relevant. I'm noticing that the cases are 'sticky' in chambering/extraction (unloaded, just the brass) and that there are faint lines scratched near the shoulder on extraction. The brass chambers but can be sticky on extraction. (The straight pull action of the Blaser doesn't allow particularly gentle bolt closure in the way a conventional bolt action might.) I would have thought a lack of headspace would mean the cases wouldn't chamber at all so was ruling out a requirement to bump the shoulders but maybe I am wrong. I've done my best to show the issue in the attached photo. Help appreciated!

Steve

Good morning Steve,
So with all the talk going into this thread what path have you decided to explore. I'm also a 308 shooter ( for now ) and enjoy others experiences.
Also my friend I do apologize to you for my part of your thread being taken somewhat off topic.
Best Regards
SPJ

 

[SGK]

Sorry for the delay in responding. The forum locked me out of posting as I had hit some 48 hour post limit.

It is better to turn the brass when new. You can control things better and get a more accurate turn. Matt .

Agreed. But I would rather practice on my fire formed brass than wreck the new Lapua brass I ordered.

You are talking about a hunting rifle with a light barrel, turning brass is probably not going to gain you much if anything.

Fair point.

@paul. Thanks! Got you. I recognise that it may take more than 1 firing to properly fire-form the brass. There's a difference within the same brass pool between the 2F cases and those still only 1F. It sounds like the shoulder might need a bit of a nudge already. I will compare the base-to-shoulder lengths. 2F is 1.6295" +/-0.5 thou. Need to measure the 1F.

@SPJ no apology needed! I will be getting out my Redding body die once I have measured the difference between the 2F and 1F cases. Lots to absorb in this new hobby!!

You guys have already got me wanting a range rifle of some description faster than I already was. FWIW this is a pic of my last hunting purchase, 7mm Rem Mag but https://hardyrifleengineering.co.nz. Tikka T3x action, Hardy carbon fibre barrel, carbon stock. Nothing too fancy but not a run-of-the-mill hunting rifle either. I dabbled at one point with the idea of upgrading my Blaser to heavy weight barrels and an Atzl Match-Hunt trigger but deferred in favour of another rifle at some point.

[Off-topic gripe: I was annoyed I had to sell all my moderators before moving. I don't get it. Guns are ok here but hearing protection isn't. I see it might change though. The cost of replacement here is about 2x what they cost overseas. Strange given most other components are much cheaper.]

 

[SGK]

I will compare the base-to-shoulder lengths. 2F is 1.6295" +/-0.5 thou.

1F is fairly consistently 1.6290", occasionally 0.5 thou smaller. 1F cases chamber without sticking. Scratch there but fainter. Sounds like 1.629" is getting to my max spec (and perhaps I should get my chamber checked) and I should FL resize to, say, 1 thou smaller than this. Correct?

 

[Richard Coody]

Sorry for the delay in responding. The forum locked me out of posting as I had hit some 48 hour post limit.



Agreed. But I would rather practice on my fire formed brass than wreck the new Lapua brass I ordered.




Fair point.

@paul. Thanks! Got you. I recognise that it may take more than 1 firing to properly fire-form the brass. There's a difference within the same brass pool between the 2F cases and those still only 1F. It sounds like the shoulder might need a bit of a nudge already. I will compare the base-to-shoulder lengths. 2F is 1.6295" +/-0.5 thou. Need to measure the 1F.

@SPJ no apology needed! I will be getting out my Redding body die once I have measured the difference between the 2F and 1F cases. Lots to absorb in this new hobby!!

You guys have already got me wanting a range rifle of some description faster than I already was. FWIW this is a pic of my last hunting purchase, 7mm Rem Mag but https://hardyrifleengineering.co.nz. Tikka T3x action, Hardy carbon fibre barrel, carbon stock. Nothing too fancy but not a run-of-the-mill hunting rifle either. I dabbled at one point with the idea of upgrading my Blaser to heavy weight barrels and an Atzl Match-Hunt trigger but deferred in favour of another rifle at some point.

[Off-topic gripe: I was annoyed I had to sell all my moderators before moving. I don't get it. Guns are ok here but hearing protection isn't. I see it might change though. The cost of replacement here is about 2x what they cost overseas. Strange given most other components are much cheaper.]

range rifle?

here is a nice inexpensive one. not what i would pick for competion but will certainly be a fun gun.
http://benchrest.com/class/index.php?a=2&b=11529

and here is one you could turn into a real competitive rifle
http://benchrest.com/class/index.php?a=2&b=11582

 

[SGK]

Tempting but not for now.

I measured a bunch of my 308 brass: length CBTS(houlder), diameter of wall at bottom and diameter of wall with callipers aligned with top edge/shoulder. I didn't calculate any averages, merely looked at the range and what were common results.

Unfired Lapua brass as a reference: 1.626", 0.469" and 0.451"
1F PPU (not sticky): 1.6285-1.6290, 0.4705-0.4710 (occasional 0.470), 0.457
2F PPU (sticky): 1.6295, 0.471 (occasional 0.4715), 0.457

1F RWS: 1.6280-1.6285, 0.47 +/- 0.5 thou, 0.457
3F RWS: 1.6295, 0.4705-0.4710, 0.457

Next is to see what the Redding body die sizes it to. I have a target for CBTS ("headspace") but it will be interesting to see where the other two dimensions end up.

 

[SGK]

I resized some of my 2F PPU brass. It took me a few cases to get the shoulder bump to a CBTS length of 1.627-1.628. The body die can only be adjusted via the locking ring, probably reason enough to swap my neck bushing and body die for a FL die. In the end most measured 1.628 and I measured the new diameter of wall at bottom and diameter of wall with callipers aligned with top edge/shoulder, comparable to the measurements above.

I ended up with 0.4695/0.4700 at the base and 0.454 at the shoulder. So a resize of length of 1-1.5 thou, wall at base of 1-2 thou and 3 thou to the wall at the shoulder.

I guess I would appreciate a sense of whether this is ok, good or not so good.

 

[SGK]

^^^all of this^^^ Full length size every time and remove the expander ball.

Hi. Can I check the bold part (my emphasis). I have neck turned my cases but rather conservatively, leaving plenty of "low side" visible across the batch. I've chosen my neck bushing based on the high side I shaved to (well, thereabouts). Should I still remove the expander ball?

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Hi. Can I check the bold part (my emphasis). I have neck turned my cases but rather conservatively, leaving plenty of "low side" visible across the batch. I've chosen my neck bushing based on the high side I shaved to (well, thereabouts). Should I still remove the expander ball?

If your expander drags back thru your neck then no matter which bushing you choose you cant change your neck tension

 

[SGK]

Thanks a lot. I had asked Redding why have an expander button at all. Their response:

The use of a size button does not reduce the overall effect on the bushing dies sizing. We use brass due to its elasticity as by nature brass wants to return the shape it was previously in. It acts muck like a spring as in the more we reduce it the stronger the spring back will be to return to that dimension.Some full dies can be reducing .010" or better so the brass has more set given to it so that even though we pass an expander back through it it still has more grip than one reduced by smaller amounts. The brass will "spring back" and the more we bring it down the more it will spring back, especially as it gets thicker. The same applies when we are sizing with a bushing

Given I am only 'trimming the high side' of my necks rather than trimming it all to an exact and perfectly consistent thickness I wanted to check my workflow.