284Win Millsaps-FatBoy Project Complete
- Thread starter FatBoy
- Start date
Fatboy,
Got onto this thread a little late but have read through it with great interest. Have had a lot to do with the 284 since i first chambered one up 15 years ago. The tale you tell is all to familiar as just recently a fellow over here had a duplication of your nightmare with a 8.5 twist barrel and all the same pills and powders you are using or thinking of using. Heres the two cents worth i gave him. The faster the 175/180 are driven the worse the groups got so i advised him to slow right down using the H4350. It worked fine but was a waste of cartridge and bullets as they/it were not used to their full potential. The next thing i told him to do was to get a 9.5 twist barrel which he has done and in his first match he came a creditable third using the 175 SMK at just over 2900 fps. The one thing i did say to him which he did not get to try but i know from my own experiences is that when all else fails go to the 168 SMK or better still the 162 Amax which should never be discounted and run 51.5/52 grains of H4350 with either. Both of these pills can be shot through a broad range of twist rates without major loss in accuracy. One thing i know for certain is that some barrels with fast twist rates like 8.5 make the 175 SMK do some very strange things in the vertical plane. I have shot them in 9, 9.5, 10 and 11 twist rates and the best is 9.5 at a speed of 2950 fps in a 280 AI and the 10 twist in a 7/300 Magnum at 3200 fps. As far as the 180 Bergers go i have only seen them play the game in 9 twist or faster and because of their vertical tendency i would only shoot them in F Classs where a slightly larger group doesn't matter too much. In 1000 IBS these pills were real crap and the 162 Amax,lot 326) made them look like junk. 4831 SC in the 284 worked fine for me in the region of 57.5 grains in the old Winchester brass, a load that will probably lock up the bolt with the Lapua crap, but if you experience large variations in humidity it will let you down as the barrel will powder foul badly as the humidity goes beyond 80%. Best of luck with anything slower as i have been there and have yet to find anything better than the 4350 that you are using.
Tony Z.
ps. I would bypass the 4831 SC completely and go to H4831. Both are made in Australia by ADI but they are completely different. I have been using this powder for a little while now and the speed gained and the lower pressures with the H4831 would indicate to me that it would be a better choice than the Short Cut stuff. The jury is still out though on whether it powder fouls like the SC cousin. The ADI manual lists 53.5 grains of 2209,H4350) and a 168 grain pill as a maximum load,2822 fps in a 24" barrel) and 51.5 grains of the same with the 175 grainers,2649 fps) . I garantee that these loads are a surefire way to keep you busy replacing Lapua cases after a few firings as my experiences indicate that the brass heads are soft and the primer pockets swell at relatively low pressures. Hope your brass is better.
Got onto this thread a little late but have read through it with great interest. Have had a lot to do with the 284 since i first chambered one up 15 years ago. The tale you tell is all to familiar as just recently a fellow over here had a duplication of your nightmare with a 8.5 twist barrel and all the same pills and powders you are using or thinking of using. Heres the two cents worth i gave him. The faster the 175/180 are driven the worse the groups got so i advised him to slow right down using the H4350. It worked fine but was a waste of cartridge and bullets as they/it were not used to their full potential. The next thing i told him to do was to get a 9.5 twist barrel which he has done and in his first match he came a creditable third using the 175 SMK at just over 2900 fps. The one thing i did say to him which he did not get to try but i know from my own experiences is that when all else fails go to the 168 SMK or better still the 162 Amax which should never be discounted and run 51.5/52 grains of H4350 with either. Both of these pills can be shot through a broad range of twist rates without major loss in accuracy. One thing i know for certain is that some barrels with fast twist rates like 8.5 make the 175 SMK do some very strange things in the vertical plane. I have shot them in 9, 9.5, 10 and 11 twist rates and the best is 9.5 at a speed of 2950 fps in a 280 AI and the 10 twist in a 7/300 Magnum at 3200 fps. As far as the 180 Bergers go i have only seen them play the game in 9 twist or faster and because of their vertical tendency i would only shoot them in F Classs where a slightly larger group doesn't matter too much. In 1000 IBS these pills were real crap and the 162 Amax,lot 326) made them look like junk. 4831 SC in the 284 worked fine for me in the region of 57.5 grains in the old Winchester brass, a load that will probably lock up the bolt with the Lapua crap, but if you experience large variations in humidity it will let you down as the barrel will powder foul badly as the humidity goes beyond 80%. Best of luck with anything slower as i have been there and have yet to find anything better than the 4350 that you are using.
Tony Z.
ps. I would bypass the 4831 SC completely and go to H4831. Both are made in Australia by ADI but they are completely different. I have been using this powder for a little while now and the speed gained and the lower pressures with the H4831 would indicate to me that it would be a better choice than the Short Cut stuff. The jury is still out though on whether it powder fouls like the SC cousin. The ADI manual lists 53.5 grains of 2209,H4350) and a 168 grain pill as a maximum load,2822 fps in a 24" barrel) and 51.5 grains of the same with the 175 grainers,2649 fps) . I garantee that these loads are a surefire way to keep you busy replacing Lapua cases after a few firings as my experiences indicate that the brass heads are soft and the primer pockets swell at relatively low pressures. Hope your brass is better.
TonyZ said:
So wait...you are saying Lapua are soft, and you prefer Win?
How come WW brass started clicking for me while Lapua was still going strong?
Please provide some more data on your soft lapua...and the lot number on the inside of the box flap.
PLEASE send me any new lapua 6.5-284 brass you have in the original Box...I'll take it off your hands, and I'll pay freight
I have found temporary happiness at about 55.6 of h4831SC with the 180 seated LONG in a Lapua case...will get its first "real" test next weekend though...IIRC, my length to ogive is 3.547" with a SP comp.
JB
JB,
Not the current Win cases, but the good old stuff that was unprimed in the boxes of twenty pieces. Haven't seen that in Aus for years. I will gladly swap you every case of Lapua i have,lot EM A DAK) for the same in Winchester Western,lot 03CEB91). There are a couple of other guys that will gladly do the same deal if you wish:angel:. Seriously, this stuff is dangerous as some of the cases have had splits in the body shoulder area and others with relatively light loads have developed a set,bend) that cannot be recovered aswell as others that have the heads swell to the point where they will not fit the shell holder. The importer did acknowledge a problem with this brass and did replace it for some, the problem being that he had only the same batch to send back to you! The bit that has had me a bit confused over the last few years is that there are others that have got this identical batch and have been running it without a problem. There must have been a change in some process half way through this lots manufacture. Scary.
Tony Z.
Not the current Win cases, but the good old stuff that was unprimed in the boxes of twenty pieces. Haven't seen that in Aus for years. I will gladly swap you every case of Lapua i have,lot EM A DAK) for the same in Winchester Western,lot 03CEB91). There are a couple of other guys that will gladly do the same deal if you wish:angel:. Seriously, this stuff is dangerous as some of the cases have had splits in the body shoulder area and others with relatively light loads have developed a set,bend) that cannot be recovered aswell as others that have the heads swell to the point where they will not fit the shell holder. The importer did acknowledge a problem with this brass and did replace it for some, the problem being that he had only the same batch to send back to you! The bit that has had me a bit confused over the last few years is that there are others that have got this identical batch and have been running it without a problem. There must have been a change in some process half way through this lots manufacture. Scary.
Tony Z.
Tony,
Thanks for the tips. I was considering dropping my load back another .3gr,to 49.8gr H4350) but if I go any slower, there really is no point in shooting the 284win over the 6.5x284.
My rational for typing that? If it's not going to beat the FagMag in the wind,or at least equal it) then the only advantage is the possibility of longer barrel life, at the expence of more recoil. I can live with the barrel replacements,, as I'm used to it. Whatb I don't like is spending days trying to tune a load, only to find it throws the occasional 9 out the top, in no wind conditions.
I'll be doing some more tettsing with the 284win,, but I won't be buying another barrel. If the 9 twist doesn't work, and the lighter bullets don't cut the mustard,, then it's going to be another one of my FagMags by late August.
Chris...
Thanks for the tips. I was considering dropping my load back another .3gr,to 49.8gr H4350) but if I go any slower, there really is no point in shooting the 284win over the 6.5x284.
My rational for typing that? If it's not going to beat the FagMag in the wind,or at least equal it) then the only advantage is the possibility of longer barrel life, at the expence of more recoil. I can live with the barrel replacements,, as I'm used to it. Whatb I don't like is spending days trying to tune a load, only to find it throws the occasional 9 out the top, in no wind conditions.
I'll be doing some more tettsing with the 284win,, but I won't be buying another barrel. If the 9 twist doesn't work, and the lighter bullets don't cut the mustard,, then it's going to be another one of my FagMags by late August.
Chris...
Fatboy,
Just as a last word, the 162 Amax has dropped out of favour in recent times because of some poor consistancy, but if a good batch can be found they will not disappoint you at all the distances right back to a 1000 yards. You should be able to drive them to 3000 fps or maybe a little bit over if you have got good brass. Their BC is good but not as high as the manufacturer claims, more likely to be just over or around .600. Of the batches that i know of, 00-326 was by far and away the best, and 01-717 was by far and away the worst. With the 168 SMK, i never saw a bad batch but as you know their BC is a little on the down side although their accuracy potential is probably only second to some of the good custom stuff like the JLKs or 168 Bergers. Best of luck.
Tony Z.
Just as a last word, the 162 Amax has dropped out of favour in recent times because of some poor consistancy, but if a good batch can be found they will not disappoint you at all the distances right back to a 1000 yards. You should be able to drive them to 3000 fps or maybe a little bit over if you have got good brass. Their BC is good but not as high as the manufacturer claims, more likely to be just over or around .600. Of the batches that i know of, 00-326 was by far and away the best, and 01-717 was by far and away the worst. With the 168 SMK, i never saw a bad batch but as you know their BC is a little on the down side although their accuracy potential is probably only second to some of the good custom stuff like the JLKs or 168 Bergers. Best of luck.
Tony Z.
Fatboy,
Try vv n-165 about 57gr. As usual work up!
Wayne,
Try vv n-165 about 57gr. As usual work up!
Wayne,
Chris, any new updates? You get this thing shooting or scrap the barrel?
Geb
Geb
I didn't have enough time to load test with my back surgery, so when I was down and out, I had a 31" Border 6.5mm tube screwed on, as I have a pretty good load that works in ALL my 6.5x284's.
I sent 40 rounds down the pipe at 200 and was less then impressed, but I took it to 1000y anyway and shot a 200-9x of the sling and jacket,, so I guess it'll work.
I have the 7mm barrel sitting right next to me, and will give it more time when I have the chance, but the state championship was last weekend,rained out) and I wanted two identical 6.5x284's for my scope/iron sight rifles, and used my AI for a backup.
Chris...
I sent 40 rounds down the pipe at 200 and was less then impressed, but I took it to 1000y anyway and shot a 200-9x of the sling and jacket,, so I guess it'll work.
I have the 7mm barrel sitting right next to me, and will give it more time when I have the chance, but the state championship was last weekend,rained out) and I wanted two identical 6.5x284's for my scope/iron sight rifles, and used my AI for a backup.
Chris...
I just built my .284 and will be testing soon. Will update anything positive. I have Berger and JLK's to test in 180gr and some 162gr AMAX.
Lawton Action dual port
29.5" Lawton barrel with RAD brake
Shehane Laminate stock
Weaver 45X
Lawton Action dual port
29.5" Lawton barrel with RAD brake
Shehane Laminate stock
Weaver 45X
Been to the range a couple times. So far it's looking good with 180 Bergers and 54.0grs H4831SC, just like evryone one says.
jb1000br
Could you check your length to ogive please.This seems excessively long??
I have only just started to shoot my 284W,50 rounds on sun).Lapua brass 180 VLD,.020 jam) load testing 53-54gn H4831sc CCI BR primers.Slight flattening on the primers around 53.6 up, and wondered how you managed such a hot load.
Could you check your length to ogive please.This seems excessively long??
I have only just started to shoot my 284W,50 rounds on sun).Lapua brass 180 VLD,.020 jam) load testing 53-54gn H4831sc CCI BR primers.Slight flattening on the primers around 53.6 up, and wondered how you managed such a hot load.
jbr1000br
Ah thats about what I am using . I measure 2.525 with the SP comp,actually a .010 jam,not .020).Do you not show primer pressure signs at 55.6.As I said my primers were starting to flatten at just under 54gn.Am a relative newbie,and not sure how much to push this.Action and barrel will take a lot more for sure,but dont know about the cases/primers.Should I be backing off until the primers show no signs,or is it ok to push on a bit.No cratering apparent.
Ah thats about what I am using . I measure 2.525 with the SP comp,actually a .010 jam,not .020).Do you not show primer pressure signs at 55.6.As I said my primers were starting to flatten at just under 54gn.Am a relative newbie,and not sure how much to push this.Action and barrel will take a lot more for sure,but dont know about the cases/primers.Should I be backing off until the primers show no signs,or is it ok to push on a bit.No cratering apparent.
jb,
Mine seems to shoot just a little faster than that, I will double check it with a Oehler as soon as I can. I think this will be a great choice as of my current testing.
RD
Mine seems to shoot just a little faster than that, I will double check it with a Oehler as soon as I can. I think this will be a great choice as of my current testing.
RD
I've tested 4831SC against regular 4831 and have found that the old long-grain powder gives more velocity and better accruacy with B180s. Both N165 & H4831 have performed better than 4831SC for me, giving good results in 1000yd. any/any LR prone matches, though my velocities aren't over 2800fps. My 1st 284 bbl. was a 28" PacNor 3-groove/9-twist - it handled the S175MK better than the Bartlein does, but I was disappointed with the velocity I was getting. Since the 30" Bartlein was already on hand, I went ahead and chambered up the longer bbl.
My current rifle is built around a Rem 700LA with a PTG custom bolt, 30" Bartlein 9-twist in hvy. Palma contour, McMillan A5 stock, and has given very good accuracy. However, I'll soon be shooting a new rifle built around a long BAT 3L with a Krieger 9-twist in a Robertson H&H prone stock, and am looking forward to comparing results between the two rifles.
My current rifle is built around a Rem 700LA with a PTG custom bolt, 30" Bartlein 9-twist in hvy. Palma contour, McMillan A5 stock, and has given very good accuracy. However, I'll soon be shooting a new rifle built around a long BAT 3L with a Krieger 9-twist in a Robertson H&H prone stock, and am looking forward to comparing results between the two rifles.
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