264 LBC-AR Cartridge

[TX65]

For those interested in a light 6.5mm cartridge, the attached pdf is the chamber print for the 264 LBC-AR that Les Baer Custom released at SHOT 2010.

Hornady is making 2 million pieces of brass in the first production run and Black Hills is loading ammunition. Hornady is also making reloading dies.

Pacific Tool & Gauge has reamers available for sale.

I spoke to Les Baer, Sr this past Monday and he said any person or company is free to use it,,, there are no licenses or royalties.

Would also be great as a 30 PPCX with a 17 twist barrel for 110-120 grain flat base bullets for score shooting. In a bolt gun, the 112 BIB bullet is running 3000 fps.

 

[dan06]

Is this round based on any thing that is already out there?

 

[TX65]

It is another development of the PPC cartridge family that Les Baer is releasing for the AR-15. Keeping generic, it would be an improved version of the 6.5 PPC with the shoulder blown forward.

 

[kentuckytroutbum]

Actually, its based upon the 6.5 Grendel catridge. There is quite a discussion about it on the 6.5 Grendel website & forum. Here is the link:

http://www.65grendel.com/

According to the forum, Les Baer has the taken the Grendel and modified the chamber and leade design to create his own propietary cartridge. The Grendel, as designed by Bill Alexander, has a compound throat/leade. My takeaway is that it doesn't do anything more than the Grendel, it just solves some short throat/leade issues with 123 grain (or heavier) bullets.

 

[Grendelizer]

Les Baer used to make 6.5 Grendel rifles, and Black Hills Ammunition used to load 6.5 Grendel ammunition exclusively for Les Baer.

Les Baer has now dropped the 65G and is introducing his 264 LBC-AR. Below is the link to his SHOT Show 2010 press release:

Link: http://www.rifleshootermag.com/new_products/RS_shotshow2010day1_011910WO/

Note where he states: ". . . will also perform in rifles chambered for the 6.5 Grendel."

So what we have here is an attempt to piggy-back on the 6.5 Grendel's growing popularity (Hornady being the latest major ammo manufacturer to offer 6.5 Grendel ammunition) with a copy-cat cartridge.

What Arne no doubt means when he says "Hornady is making 2 million pieces of brass" is that when Hornady makes their 6.5 Grendel brass, a portion of it may have a boutique head-stamp for the 264 LBC-AR.

John

 

[TX65]

According to Les Baer Sr. himself, he has 700,000 pieces ordered already with additional orders to follow.

 

[Tiger]

Les Baer used to make 6.5 Grendel rifles, and Black Hills Ammunition used to load 6.5 Grendel ammunition exclusively for Les Baer.

Les Baer has now dropped the 65G and is introducing his 264 LBC-AR. Below is the link to his SHOT Show 2010 press release:

Link: http://www.rifleshootermag.com/new_products/RS_shotshow2010day1_011910WO/

Note where he states: ". . . will also perform in rifles chambered for the 6.5 Grendel."

So what we have here is an attempt to piggy-back on the 6.5 Grendel's growing popularity (Hornady being the latest major ammo manufacturer to offer 6.5 Grendel ammunition) with a copy-cat cartridge.

What Arne no doubt means when he says "Hornady is making 2 million pieces of brass" is that when Hornady makes their 6.5 Grendel brass, a portion of it may have a boutique head-stamp for the 264 LBC-AR.

John

John,

I think it's going to be the other way around.

Tiger

 

[Grendelizer]

First of all, Tiger, congratulations on your first post.

Now, would you please explain your rationale for making this claim?

John

 

[CJ6]

Maybe it's a way to get around the royalty payments.It's possible

 

[Grendelizer]

CJ6, that's a fair guess. However, in this case, royalty payments were a zero factor, so it can't be that.

I don't know Les Baer's personal motivation for doing this, but the indisputable fact is that his new cartridge is a 6.5 Grendel copycat of the very cartridge he previously licensed.

John

 

[Grendelfreak]

Les Baer used to make 6.5 Grendel rifles, and Black Hills Ammunition used to load 6.5 Grendel ammunition exclusively for Les Baer.

Les Baer has now dropped the 65G and is introducing his 264 LBC-AR. Below is the link to his SHOT Show 2010 press release:

Link: http://www.rifleshootermag.com/new_products/RS_shotshow2010day1_011910WO/

Note where he states: ". . . will also perform in rifles chambered for the 6.5 Grendel."

So what we have here is an attempt to piggy-back on the 6.5 Grendel's growing popularity (Hornady being the latest major ammo manufacturer to offer 6.5 Grendel ammunition) with a copy-cat cartridge.

What Arne no doubt means when he says "Hornady is making 2 million pieces of brass" is that when Hornady makes their 6.5 Grendel brass, a portion of it may have a boutique head-stamp for the 264 LBC-AR.

John

John,

I think it's going to be the other way around.

Tiger

That's an interesting thought. I wonder how a truly niche company like Les Baer, who produces perhaps the most expensive AR's available, will ever surpass the multitude of companies already producing the Grendel.

It would seem that companies like Sabre, JT, etc. are likely to produce as many Grendels in a month as Les Baer produces in a year!

Going to be hard for LB to catch up!

Remember, the vast majority of AR purchases are lower end purchases, not big bucks rifles. Les Baer doesn't play in that lower end market, so they are at a huge disadvantage.

Look at the facts:

Les Baer has one load planned, the 123 AMAX. Black Hills ammo, while certainly premium in nature, has also always been premium in price, actually more expensive even than Alexander Arms ammo.

Current Grendel manufacturers produce at least 8 different loads, and Hornady will be coming on board with at least 2 more in the next few months.

Advantage: Grendel

Les Baer rifles are extremely well built, but their price is at the top of the market, too.

There are Grendels available from the same price point as 5.56 all the way up to the price of Les Baers.

Advantage in numbers: Grendel

Les Baer is providing no loading information.

Alexander Arms, Hodgdon/IMR/Winchester, Ramshot/Western powders all provide 6.5 Grendel loading data.

Advantage: Grendel

Number of rifles in the field:

Advantage: Grendel, by huge numbers! And if you bought a Les Baer Grendel, how do you feel now that Les Baer has turned his back on you?

I had planned on picking up 2 Les Baer .45's this year. This move makes me very unlikely to do so. I doubt the stability and business acumen of someone who says they support something one day, then turns their back on it the next.

Not a smart move, in my opinion.

 

[Tiger]

First of all, Tiger, congratulations on your first post.

Now, would you please explain your rationale for making this claim?

John

Well let's see. It all started with LW, then that deal went under. Next came Satern. We all know what the problem was there...the long long long long wait for barrels. Next came Shilen but inbetween them were Sabre (remains to be seen what Sabre will do), E.R. Shaw, and God knows who else. The Wolf deal doesn't seem to be going so well and nothing ever become of Fiocchi. What this tells me that who is ever running AA has managed to irritate (put mildy) his vendors. Could be bad business practices, bad personality, no money...who knows.

No matter what you say you bought into the licensing/royalty contracts hyperbole that it insured quality and longevity. As we see all it insured was many weren't going to sign up and that it also killed AA growth....and...well....in very recent past looks likes it's pounding nails in the coffin.

Tiger

 

[Grendelizer]

Hey, OldJoe, it's only you? Why didn't you say so? Have a nice day. 8)

John

 

[wrsteve]

Satern is getting better or I just hit a good time. Ordered an 18" barrel in mid Nov and it just shipped monday from AA.

 

[Tiger]

Hey John, The truth hurts huh? We're all wondering when you're going to wise up and see the light. I won't ask to come back because I think AA will fold up in the near future. Little note of interest: Last months Shooting Time already had Les Baers new ad showing the .265. As you know too the recent issue of Guns & Ammo has an article on the .264. My point being is this change with Les didn't just happen, it's happen long enough ago that these two magazine had a heads up and you know the time it takes to get those articles and advertisements in. Wake up buddy.


Tiger

 

[Tiger]

Top Ten Reason The .264 LBC-AR Will Succeed

10. No stupid licensing contract.
9. No barrel vendor conflicts.
8. No silly mythical monster name to the cartridge.
7. Supply and demand will be met.
6. No promises of things that never materialize.
5. Safe pressures developed by one of the leading industry’s ammo manufacturers.
4. No more broken or fatigued bolts.
3. REAL FACTORY loaded ammuniation.
2. Same manufacturer on major components for the rifle.
And Number One!
1. Manufactured by an American, not a foreigner.

 

[Cruiser]

Coincidence? Alexander Arms cannot get anyone to mfg ammo. Les isolates himself from AA and Hornady starts making Grendel ammo and brass for Grendel and 264 LBC! Was Hornady's decision to enter production in support/business with Les????

 

[Grendelfreak]

Top Ten Reason The .264 LBC-AR Will Succeed

10. No stupid licensing contract.

Yeah!! Now EVERYONE can screw with the chamber! Can you say 6.8?

9. No barrel vendor conflicts.

Tha's a biggie! With everyone cutting different chambers, who cares?

8. No silly mythical monster name to the cartridge.

Now its named after someone who wants to take credit for something he had no hand in developing and STILL wants his name on it! That's a BIG step up!

7. Supply and demand will be met.

Of course, by the most expensive AR manufacturer out there! Way to go!! I mean Les Baers backlog for the Grendel was only 8-12 months, they are REALLY cranking them out!

6. No promises of things that never materialize.

Hmmm... Do you mean like the 3 different Grendel loads promised by Les Baer when they took on the Grendel?

5. Safe pressures developed by one of the leading industry’s ammo manufacturers.

Interesting, is that pointed at AA? I haven't heard of a lot of ammo issues with factory ammo, and the numbers that AA posts match pretty close with Hodgdon/IMR/Winchester. Guess their data is all off, too!

4. No more broken or fatigued bolts.

Interesting, since he's using the same bolts!

3. REAL FACTORY loaded ammuniation.

Wolf doesn't count? Even discounting AA factory loads, Lapua brass doesn't exist except for AA. Hornady brass doesn't exist, unless AA works with Hornady. They weren't going to build brass for LB unless they were also doing AA. In fact, this whole thing reeks of behind the scenes maneuvering by Les Baer, without Hornady's knowledge.

2. Same manufacturer on major components for the rifle.

That's definitely nice! Les Baer builds great products. Of course in doing this to the Grendel he earns a lot of dissatisfied customers, (the ones who previously bought Grendels from him.) On top of that, now every other manufacturer will be VERY careful in their dealings with Les Baer, wondering if he will do the same to them.

And Number One!
1. Manufactured by an American, not a foreigner.

WOW!! That REALLY is pretty low. Of course your ancestry must be Native American! Otherwise, you're a foreigner just like Bill Alexander! Oh...you aren't Native American? That makes you a bigot, and nothing but a bigot! Good luck to your chances of ever regaining any respect with that kind of attitude!

 

[bwaites]

Wow, we're less than 2 weeks into the era of Hornady and the 6.5 and it's already getting ugly.

We have people predicting the demise of the first and foremost promoter of the cartridge. Why so down on AA, Tiger?

Never mind, I just realized what Grendelizer was saying about your background.

 

[rcw3]

The thing that strikes me most about this thread is how many of the people are making postings under an anonymous forum handle and won't put their true name to their writings. To me that says more about the poster than anything else.

Frankly I think there should be a forum rule that those who make postings must sign their real name to them so we know who they are - that might stop a lot of the offensive stuff you see.

Whether or not you like Bill Alexander and Alexander Arms, the 6.5 Grendel would not be with us if it were not for them - and they deserve credit and praise for bringing the 6.5 Grendel to the US market and making it a reality (with Lapua brass too)!

The AR-15 business is a "rough and tumble" business enough already and a little less drawing of "battle lines" might be a good thing.

Robert Whitley