240 Page S.P. ?
- Thread starter TJUrban
- Start date
Spotcheck_Billy
A friend had one a very long time ago.
IIRC, it's a 6mm Remington with the case body fireformed to a minimum taper and about a 28 to 30 degree taper. Pretty large powder capacity for the bore size, I remember that he didn't keep it all that long.
IIRC, it's a 6mm Remington with the case body fireformed to a minimum taper and about a 28 to 30 degree taper. Pretty large powder capacity for the bore size, I remember that he didn't keep it all that long.
The 240 PSP is actually the 243W Improved. More approprietly it's the 240 Page Pooper Improved. Page developed it shortly after the 243W came out. He developed the 240 Page in 1952,prior to either the 308 or 243) but neither Winchester nor Remington would buy his idea, even though it was a better cartridge than the 243W.
The Fred Huntington 243 Rockchuker preceded the 244 Remington. Using the 257 Roberts case it too was a better cartridge than what the factory brought out. The Super Rockchucker is the same as the 244 AI for all practical purposes.
I think company pride and snobbishness prevented either Winchester or Remington from adopting a cartridge that somebody else had designed. Too bad for the shooters.
Ray
The Fred Huntington 243 Rockchuker preceded the 244 Remington. Using the 257 Roberts case it too was a better cartridge than what the factory brought out. The Super Rockchucker is the same as the 244 AI for all practical purposes.
I think company pride and snobbishness prevented either Winchester or Remington from adopting a cartridge that somebody else had designed. Too bad for the shooters.
Ray
Spotcheck_Billy
Ray,
I've got to respectfully disagree with you.
The cartridge that you describe as being essentially a .243 Win Improved was actually known as the .240 Page Pooper.
The .240 Page Souper Pooper is made up from the 6mm,originally .244) Remington cartridge.
It's easy to get the two confused by ommitting the "Souper" in its designation.
I've got to respectfully disagree with you.
The cartridge that you describe as being essentially a .243 Win Improved was actually known as the .240 Page Pooper.
The .240 Page Souper Pooper is made up from the 6mm,originally .244) Remington cartridge.
It's easy to get the two confused by ommitting the "Souper" in its designation.
Billy
I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree.
The 240 Page was developed in 1951-2 by Warren Page using experimental Frankford Arsenal brass one year before the introduction of the 308W,30-80 WCF)and three years before Winchester introduced the 243 Winchester. He took his cartridge to both Remington and Winchester but they refused to consider it. Later of course, Winchester brought out their version with a 20 degree shoulder rather than Page's 30 degree. In about 1957 Page took the 243 W and improved it and called it the 240 PSP. It's all in his book and the cartridges I pictured are originals.
Several other shooters, including guys like Red Cornelison, made up 243 caliber rifles using necked down 308W brass prior to the introduction of the 243W. I have a couple of boxes of Red's cases, given to me by Butch Lambert, that Red called the 308/6mm. I renamed them the 6mm Redhead in his memory.
Fred Huntington preferred the 257 Roberts case,or the 7x57mm) and developed his 243 Rockchuker about 2 years before Remington's 244 Remington. He used a 32 degree shoulder. Remington chose to go with a 26 degree shoulder. The 244 probably would have made the 243W obsolete except for Remington's screw up in looking at the cartridge as a varmint round. The Super Rockchuker used a 45 degree shoulder and is a ballistic twin of Ackley's 244 AI.
I also collect wildcat cartridges and have original specemins of all of these.
But, I'm open to changing my mind if you have proof otherwise.
ray
I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree.
The 240 Page was developed in 1951-2 by Warren Page using experimental Frankford Arsenal brass one year before the introduction of the 308W,30-80 WCF)and three years before Winchester introduced the 243 Winchester. He took his cartridge to both Remington and Winchester but they refused to consider it. Later of course, Winchester brought out their version with a 20 degree shoulder rather than Page's 30 degree. In about 1957 Page took the 243 W and improved it and called it the 240 PSP. It's all in his book and the cartridges I pictured are originals.
Several other shooters, including guys like Red Cornelison, made up 243 caliber rifles using necked down 308W brass prior to the introduction of the 243W. I have a couple of boxes of Red's cases, given to me by Butch Lambert, that Red called the 308/6mm. I renamed them the 6mm Redhead in his memory.
Fred Huntington preferred the 257 Roberts case,or the 7x57mm) and developed his 243 Rockchuker about 2 years before Remington's 244 Remington. He used a 32 degree shoulder. Remington chose to go with a 26 degree shoulder. The 244 probably would have made the 243W obsolete except for Remington's screw up in looking at the cartridge as a varmint round. The Super Rockchuker used a 45 degree shoulder and is a ballistic twin of Ackley's 244 AI.
I also collect wildcat cartridges and have original specemins of all of these.
But, I'm open to changing my mind if you have proof otherwise.
ray
Spotcheck_Billy
First of all, let's not cloud the issue with what Fred Huntington did. It really bears little, if any, relationship to the topics at hand, which are the two Warren Page wildcats in 6mm or .24 caliber.
The Page .24 caliber wildcats are two seperate cartridges! One originally based on the 7.62 NATO case, the other originally based on the .244 Remington case.
Your photo shows the .240 Page Pooper, which was based on the 7.62 NATO case. This is NOT the cartridge that the original poster of this thread asked about!
The original poster on this thread posed a question about the .240 Page SOUPER Pooper which was a larger capacity cartridge based on the .244 Remington case.
Don't take my word for it -
From P.O. Ackley's "Handbook For Shooters & Reloaders Vol. I" p.310 -
.240 Page Pooper
"This is the forerunner of the .243 Winchester factory cartridge, and was originated by Warren Page, the ARMS Editor, of FIELD & STREAM......."
"The Page Pooper was first made from the 7.62 NATO, which later became the commercial .308 Winchester. The .30 caliber case was necked down with a considerably sharper shoulder, leaving the body the original length. This resulted in a modern sharp shouldered case with a sufficiently long neck .........."
Now on to the cartridge originally mentioned in the first post of this thread -
From the same book, this time on p.314 -
.240 Page Souper Pooper
"This cartridge can best be described as another 'improved' version of the .244 Remington. It uses more or less the conventional shoulder angle of 28,degrees) with the accepted minimum body taper design. The case holds up to 10% more powder than the standard .244 Remington ..........."
As you can see, Page's "Souper" version was not based on the .308 Winchester case, but on the .244 Remington.
I had to dig into my old books to find the Ackley volumes just to prove a point
The Page .24 caliber wildcats are two seperate cartridges! One originally based on the 7.62 NATO case, the other originally based on the .244 Remington case.
Your photo shows the .240 Page Pooper, which was based on the 7.62 NATO case. This is NOT the cartridge that the original poster of this thread asked about!
The original poster on this thread posed a question about the .240 Page SOUPER Pooper which was a larger capacity cartridge based on the .244 Remington case.
Don't take my word for it -
From P.O. Ackley's "Handbook For Shooters & Reloaders Vol. I" p.310 -
.240 Page Pooper
"This is the forerunner of the .243 Winchester factory cartridge, and was originated by Warren Page, the ARMS Editor, of FIELD & STREAM......."
"The Page Pooper was first made from the 7.62 NATO, which later became the commercial .308 Winchester. The .30 caliber case was necked down with a considerably sharper shoulder, leaving the body the original length. This resulted in a modern sharp shouldered case with a sufficiently long neck .........."
Now on to the cartridge originally mentioned in the first post of this thread -
From the same book, this time on p.314 -
.240 Page Souper Pooper
"This cartridge can best be described as another 'improved' version of the .244 Remington. It uses more or less the conventional shoulder angle of 28,degrees) with the accepted minimum body taper design. The case holds up to 10% more powder than the standard .244 Remington ..........."
As you can see, Page's "Souper" version was not based on the .308 Winchester case, but on the .244 Remington.
I had to dig into my old books to find the Ackley volumes just to prove a point
Hi Guys - if it helps any, the loaded .240 PSP cartridges my friend inherited are headstamped either .244 Rem or 6mm Rem,originally).
He has dies for .240 Page Souper Pooper. He also has some fired casings.
I guess my question more exactly is...does anybody have any data for this or experience that we could use as a baseline?
Any weird/scary issues to be aware of?
thx
Tim
He has dies for .240 Page Souper Pooper. He also has some fired casings.
I guess my question more exactly is...does anybody have any data for this or experience that we could use as a baseline?
Any weird/scary issues to be aware of?
thx
Tim
Billy
This is a great discussion.
First, I wasn't trying to cloud the issue with the Rockchucker cartridges. I was trying to point out that the Rockchucker was the inspiration for the 244 Remington and the Super Rockchucker was the first "244 Improved", developed before the 244 hit the shelves. And years before the 244 Ackley.
I know this borders on blasphemy and could get me shot in places like CO and UT, but even the great P.O. hisself was wrong about some things. In this example he is wrong about several. For example, the 240 Page was not the forerunner of the 243 Winchester. Page presented his cartridge to Winchester and they indicated they had no interest in it. They did market the 243W about 3 years later but it was actually based on a necked down 308W, not on Page's case, although I'm sure it was on their mind. Next, the 240 Page was not based on the 7.62 NATO cartridge. It was based on the Frankford Arsenal FAT1E3 experimental case that Page somehow got his hands on, 3 full years before the first NATO cartridge. Next, the 308 Winchester did not "later" come from the 7.62 NATO. The 308W was first approved for commercial use in 1952 and the NATO round did not appear until 1955. Finally P.O. says that the Page Super Pooper,based on the 244 case) used the same shoulder angle of 28 degrees and yet holds up to 10% more powder. That just ain't so. Even the 244 Ackley with it's 40 degree shoulder is an improvement of less than 8% over the 244 in the thin walled brass and even less in the thicker stuff like the Remington.
Warren Page was very familiar with both the Rockchucker and Super Rockchucker,he said he had rifles for both) and there is no way he would have designed a case that simply duplicated one or both of them. However, the 243 Improved did not exist at the time and his 240 Page Improved,240 Page Super Pooper) would have been a logical design.
It's too bad that all the active players are long dead and that a lot of what they did was never put in writing. Many shooters and gunsmiths working with these old cartridges were unfamiliar with their beginnings and you will find a lot of stuff incorectly identified. Not just here in these examples but in all the wildcats of the 30s, 40s, and 50s.
I know that some of this stuff is really nit-picky but I suppose I'm a nit-picker at heart.
So, you're in CO. Do you collect cartridges? I'd sure like to find somebody close to home that shares my interest. Especially someone like you who is very knowledgable.
Ray
This is a great discussion.
First, I wasn't trying to cloud the issue with the Rockchucker cartridges. I was trying to point out that the Rockchucker was the inspiration for the 244 Remington and the Super Rockchucker was the first "244 Improved", developed before the 244 hit the shelves. And years before the 244 Ackley.
I know this borders on blasphemy and could get me shot in places like CO and UT, but even the great P.O. hisself was wrong about some things. In this example he is wrong about several. For example, the 240 Page was not the forerunner of the 243 Winchester. Page presented his cartridge to Winchester and they indicated they had no interest in it. They did market the 243W about 3 years later but it was actually based on a necked down 308W, not on Page's case, although I'm sure it was on their mind. Next, the 240 Page was not based on the 7.62 NATO cartridge. It was based on the Frankford Arsenal FAT1E3 experimental case that Page somehow got his hands on, 3 full years before the first NATO cartridge. Next, the 308 Winchester did not "later" come from the 7.62 NATO. The 308W was first approved for commercial use in 1952 and the NATO round did not appear until 1955. Finally P.O. says that the Page Super Pooper,based on the 244 case) used the same shoulder angle of 28 degrees and yet holds up to 10% more powder. That just ain't so. Even the 244 Ackley with it's 40 degree shoulder is an improvement of less than 8% over the 244 in the thin walled brass and even less in the thicker stuff like the Remington.
Warren Page was very familiar with both the Rockchucker and Super Rockchucker,he said he had rifles for both) and there is no way he would have designed a case that simply duplicated one or both of them. However, the 243 Improved did not exist at the time and his 240 Page Improved,240 Page Super Pooper) would have been a logical design.
It's too bad that all the active players are long dead and that a lot of what they did was never put in writing. Many shooters and gunsmiths working with these old cartridges were unfamiliar with their beginnings and you will find a lot of stuff incorectly identified. Not just here in these examples but in all the wildcats of the 30s, 40s, and 50s.
I know that some of this stuff is really nit-picky but I suppose I'm a nit-picker at heart.
So, you're in CO. Do you collect cartridges? I'd sure like to find somebody close to home that shares my interest. Especially someone like you who is very knowledgable.
Ray
TJUrban said:
Tim
I don't think there's anything to be particularly concerned about. If you have fired brass that fits the rifle, check a couple of them for case capacity and go from there. You'll probably find that published loads for the 243 and 244 will be a good starting point, assuming that the case capacity is at least 55 grains of H2O filled to the top.
Ray
Spotcheck_Billy
Tim, here are a few of Ackley's loads out of his book. Needless to say - be careful when working them up
75 grain bullet 51gr 4831 @3410fs
47gr 4350 @3350fs
42gr 4064 @3465fs
90 grain bullet 48gr 4831 @3170fs
45gr 4350 @3180fs
38gr 4064 @3100fs
105 grain bullet42gr 4350 @3000fs
Old Ackley wasn't more specific than this, but it might give your friend somplace to start. Good luck!
75 grain bullet 51gr 4831 @3410fs
47gr 4350 @3350fs
42gr 4064 @3465fs
90 grain bullet 48gr 4831 @3170fs
45gr 4350 @3180fs
38gr 4064 @3100fs
105 grain bullet42gr 4350 @3000fs
Old Ackley wasn't more specific than this, but it might give your friend somplace to start. Good luck!
I wanted to bump this back to top to correct my mistake.
I did a little research and found that I was wrong and Spotcheck Billy was correct. The 240 Page Super Pooper is made from the 244 Remington brass, not the 243 as i had been spouting off. I found an old Speer loading manual that gave dimensions and they even said that a rifle chambered for the 240 PSP could be safely fired with factory 244 Remington cartridges, kinda like an Ackley. i won't recommend that because I'm not postive that it can and since it's a wildcat the chambers may vary.
Ray
I did a little research and found that I was wrong and Spotcheck Billy was correct. The 240 Page Super Pooper is made from the 244 Remington brass, not the 243 as i had been spouting off. I found an old Speer loading manual that gave dimensions and they even said that a rifle chambered for the 240 PSP could be safely fired with factory 244 Remington cartridges, kinda like an Ackley. i won't recommend that because I'm not postive that it can and since it's a wildcat the chambers may vary.
Ray
Clarence
You are absolutely correct. There is a long list of cartridges that can be traced back to the 7 x 57 Mauser of 1892. Just as an example - in the early 1900s Ned Roberts necked the 7mm case down to 25 caliber with a 15 degree shoulder and long neck. He called it the 25 Roberts. In 1934 Remington changed his case to a 20 degree shoulder, shortened the neck, and introduced it as the 257 Remington Roberts. In the 1940s Fred Huntington,RCBS) necked the 257 Roberts case to 6mm with a 32 degree shoulder and called it the 243 Rockchucker. Then in 1955 Remington closed the loop by taking Huntington's case, changed the shoulder to 26 degrees and so was born the 244 Remington.
Ray
You are absolutely correct. There is a long list of cartridges that can be traced back to the 7 x 57 Mauser of 1892. Just as an example - in the early 1900s Ned Roberts necked the 7mm case down to 25 caliber with a 15 degree shoulder and long neck. He called it the 25 Roberts. In 1934 Remington changed his case to a 20 degree shoulder, shortened the neck, and introduced it as the 257 Remington Roberts. In the 1940s Fred Huntington,RCBS) necked the 257 Roberts case to 6mm with a 32 degree shoulder and called it the 243 Rockchucker. Then in 1955 Remington closed the loop by taking Huntington's case, changed the shoulder to 26 degrees and so was born the 244 Remington.
Ray
Upgrades & Donations
This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.
Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.
You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.
To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.